There are some nuances with weaving in general (also known as stutter step generator/strafe weaving) but also a few things to note that are specific to the GoD6 setup. I decided to highlight them to help DH’s get the most out of this technical mechanic for better pew pewing! Video below.
I’ve got a question. I know it isn’t the most efficient. But is one shot a second doing anything? I don’t think I can be quick enough to tap the key twice a second. But I can do 1 for sure and maybe 2 sometimes. Or maybe I don’t know what a second is (what I mean, is I’m not really counting my shots per second but I know it’s at least once).
I think what I’m saying is what I’m doing looks a lot like what you’re doing in a Grift but I’m not sure about getting 2 or 1 a second.
The video is mainly about getting the most out of weaving. You don’t have to adhire to the most efficient constraints to do fine. This is more for people trying to pull an extra 3+ GR’s out of the set that may not know the above exist.
IMO, any sort of weaving is better than no weaving at all, unless your play style demands you stop to attack for better buffs, like using echoing fury in the cube.
Thanks for the guide. I watched the video and your stream.
I went from fishing to clear 122, to clearing a 125 in one key.
I did 4 Hungering Arrows and 1 entangling shot.
I watched COE and usually shot 2 ES on physical before cold came up.
I posted a stutter stepping guide on the DH forum last week, and I still play better using the force move stutter step / generator weaving not force stand still. The only skill I use force stand still is to Entangling shot.
I had a go at it - Strafe to mouse button 4 and have hungering arrow on right click, and Entangling Shot on left click. It’s a lot easier for mid-high skill, but I know left click + force stand still stutter stepping is more advanced.
I believe about 90% of players using this build will prefer right click to main attack.
Time for a glass of scotch to celebrate my 125 lol.
Brilliant! thanks for the vid and the breakdown!
Good to see I was doing most things right.
I tend to just alternate ES and HA every sec or two, but looks like I should be HA’ing for an extra round.
The set feels really good to play, and will most likely be the best t16 set in the game with Bolas too.
Might need a bit of a number tweak, but it’s coming along really well imo.
Another great video about stutter step in D3 - thank you for that!
But why is it called “weaving”?
Looking at the thumbnail of the video I thought it is because of using ES (and catching enemies like a spider in it’s web) … but it seems to be a general term for stutter step with Strafe?
(I’m not a native speaker, so I maybe miss something obvious here.)
Thanks for the video!
If I understand it correctly it’s something like: You can hard-cast a max of 2 primaries per second while strafing, but:
- If your timing is off, the strafe animation can block the primary hard-cast from happening.
- If your timing is off, the hard-cast primary animation can block the ‘strafe firing primary’ animation from happening.
Both of which would reduce your maximum damage potential!
Timing that right, 2 times per second, all the way through a rift is a pretty steep skill curve to get to the maximum potential of this build!
I have seen #1, the missing primary hard casts, plenty of times but I always thought it was due to lag on the PTR… I can’t say that I have seen #2 since I mostly use hungering arrow and it’s difficult to see with all the other hungering arrows already in the air!
While it is better than before, it actually plays a lot more like nat now.
Weaving - forming fabric by interlacing threads.
So the fabric is the rotation, and the threads are Strafe, ES, and HA
“Weaving” is a term used in WOW as well. Usually for Mistweaver Monk working heals and damage at the same time. I think called Fist weaving.
If this becomes the meta for GoD6, then how effective and popular will it be with the general consensus of the DH community? It’s nice the build at the moment has multiple variants and different playstyles…I guess that goes with any new set/build initially. But whats your opinion if this is good or bad for…Say compared to UE, before LoD RF, was potentially on par with N6M4 but of course was/is less popular because of the required playstyle for it to be successful with it…
My worry is that if strafe-generator-weaving becomes the optimal (highest GR build I mean) way to push the build it its limits, only the best stutter-steppers will be able to compete for rank 1. Of course grinding paragon will be needed too but this build would be on top of that.
However, since there are some die-hard pushers on the leaderboards who already rely on external tools (most commonly a certain HUD program), it might be likely they will also use a macro to execute the generator-weaving perfectly. This echos of the issue with bazooka Wizards who used a macro to time everything perfectly or required a lot of skill to pull it off consistently.
I really don’t want the leaderboard to be dominated by a playstyle that either requires a macro or many hours of practice to even perform adequately. Even worse, if it turns out that DH is viable as DPS in a group setting, many DH might be kicked from a group setting if they can’t execute the weaving properly.
I look at this like WW rend. The frame perfect weaving isn’t necessary. You can totally do just fine without it. It’s a fun build, for both the try hards and the non-try hards. If people didn’t know the above exist, it wouldn’t ruin their fun with the set as you’ll still be able to clear high.
I mean, im not sure what to say to that. It’s one of the very few times where DH players are actually being rewarded for skilled play and taking risk. A version of a build in which requires more from the player should do better than a less risky version of it. That’s sorta the point of competitive play in any game/sport etc.
Most builds have had niche things about it. You have to use the snap shot mechanic with rapid fire for the highest clears. There’s potion snapshotting and numlock with S6. There’s stutter stepping with UE6 and now there’s weaving with GoD6.
Finally there’s a new build we can play at range that benefits from technical prowess (most meta builds were melee and you were forced to play that way on those builds for results) and instead of celebrating, we want to “red flag” a version that may be slightly higher than the rest of the variations
The mechanic mentioned in the video isn’t new. This exact style existed in N6 RoV years back and N6 FoK. Macros were attempted, but it was more efficient to do it yourself and thus people didn’t bother with it (thanks to peewee for clarification on that). Since this is the same technique, I don’t see a resurgence of macros given that it would be inefficient to do so.
That’s an over exaggeration. Strafed primaries shoot 4 a second. Perfect weaving gives you 2 additional arrows per second. Thats 40% more output for roughly 2 to 3 more GR’s of power over non weaved versions. This is not a significant jump for most players, in fact because it is risky to frame perfect it, you’ll often get better results not bothering with it. It’s high risk, medium reward for players that are gutsy enough to try it and I think that is fair.
Also the “up close” versions of the GoD6 build is doing just fine and nearly on par with what I’m doing as DMKT is proving on LB’s. I’m one of the few players so far that’s actually doing perfect weaving and GoD6 is still being well represented on LB’s without it. Perfect weaving “might” be 1 or 2 GR’s higher, nothing worth being afraid of missing out on and certainly would not get you kicked from groups.
For those that haven’t played much of the old school N6 RoV or FoK, then yes there is a small learning curve. If you played UE MS competitively, then what’s in the video will feel right at home with a comfortable button layout. I think the fear is that because this feels new to many players that some of the mechanics will take a little time to get use to. Once the set has been out for a while, people will look back at it and say “it’s not that bad at all”, just like what happened with N6 RoV and N6 FoK.
Give it time, or play the up close version. There’s viable options for everyone.
It was more of a yellow flag to me, the build isn’t broken but is rather cumbersome to play for non-stutter-steppers. I would have felt more comfortable if there were other paragon 3000ish players in the GR135 range using other variants. The closest is dmkt with GR136 and paragon 4800, so as you told me yesterday it’s about a +3 GR difference roughly.
It’s true that +3 GRs isn’t as bad as +10 GRs back in the N6 build days, but from a competitive standpoint, +0 would be the goal.
While the strafe-generator-weaving build is more timing-technical, it’s also more intuitive and fun to play for you so I don’t want to diminish it’s power. Likewise, the reposition and stand-and-shoot style is more comfortable for me and uses my knowledge of when to kill stuff or move on but is a bit more forgiving in timing. I really just want different playstyles to be viable from a competitive standpoint.
I don’t want the style I like to have an edge over the style you like, just for them to be on roughly equal footing. If the playstyles are already balanced, then I retract my argument and I was just overreacting. You are right that there isn’t enough data yet though so it may be even less than ±3 GRs in the end. At the very least, we can expect balance to occur in season 22.
That said, while I don’t want the style I like to be better than the style you like, the band I like is better than the band you like .
It’s cumbersome for those who “choose” to play that way. What we have to remember is that you don’t have to play that way. No one is forced into this style. You would have a valid point if there were no alternatives, but PTR data shows that’s simply not the case.
You and I know this is never going to happen. For one, player skill is going to affect all builds played regardless of gear/variation, whether that’s with being better with the technical/mechanical part of things or strategically better at navigating through GR’s and clever pylon spawn tactics. It’s statistically impossible for all skill levels to be equal.
2, you’re the math guy, what’s the probability of getting all builds and variation of builds to +0 GR, considering the variations of each rift/pylon/RG/paragon/gear rolls, not assuming varations of player ability? Bonus points if you actually calculate this.
But you seem to not have an issue with barbs variations on seasons. Ambo’s pride WW version is obviously stronger than the istvans, and you see way more Ambo clears at the top, despite it being the harder variation. You ran istvans, and you appeared to be fine with that variation being the inferior version. How is that different than what you’re claiming here?
Of course there’s not enough data. You took a sample size of 1 player that achieved a really high GR relative to paragon, and became worried that this one individual’s play style is going to define the entire meta.
I’m 100% sure that If that jerk of a player DiEoxidE never hopped on PTR and did what he did, you wouldn’t have these concerns because there’s no other data to present. How does using a sample size of 1 for a hypothesis make any logical sense to you?
Lol, wanna take this back to elementary school?
I know you are, but what am I!
I’m rubber you’re glue, whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you!
P.S. Btw, svr_90 stopped by my stream late last night and gave me a rare min ring with some things he wanted me to try. We got more testing to do
True, but I was going with the “if you can’t beat them, join them” mentality of trying to get your build to work for me. I admit there are alternatives but they don’t feel as strong as your build when watching your stream.
Essentially zero without resorting to obtaining enormous data (like running a genetic algorithm with billions of test builds/GRs). These types of problems are not feasible by direct methods with today’s computers due to the complexity and number of states in the system (unlike for example tic-tac-toe)! The best we can do at the moment is rely on genetic algorithms, machine learning, and other types of AI (like AlphaStar) to offer insight into what the meta converges to without knowing the exact perfect build/playstyle (which would likely require frame-perfect inputs throughout the entire GR).
I went back to Istvan’s because I wasn’t tough enough for Ambos/Doombringer to work (I did try about 100 keys with it though). I think the turning point (where Ambo/Doombringer feels better) is somewhere around paragon 3000 where you can have enough toughness to make it work more consistently.
Of course, I don’t deny that that guy’s GR clears were the reason I brought this up! His performance made clear that they discovered a very promising build. My concern was that I didn’t want that build to dominate the way to play so far that non-stutter-steppers would be denied entry into group play. It is a bit early to worry about something before it’s a problem though.
A sample size of 1 doesn’t offer any statistical evidence true! It does however offer proof of existence in math! It is often very difficult in math to prove something is impossible, but to prove something is possible requires just one example!
Your GR performance simply proves that such a build is strong in the right hands. I was only trying to gauge how strong it is to alternatives.
That reminded me of that song originally from 1946 (Anything You Can Do) lol
We can test with those fancy minimum damage rings later.
Well, it could be, that some players will complain about the weird playstyle of GoD, but as Dieoxide said, they are gonna get used to it. Besides, the dmg of the Set will be so attractive, that they won’t really care about its playstyle.
The problem that i see is, if the other DH-Sets won’t get any buff in Season 22, no one will touch those Sets ever again. The dmg and the efficiency at speed farming of the current GoD is so good, that makes UE, Natalya and Marauder look really bad. S6 will continue to be used as a BK (maybe), but otherwise GoD will kill the rest in every aspect. Diversity will therefore be minimized and the DH-Community might get bored in the near future
The problem I see with the “Community might get bored” argument, is that WhirlRend has been the set of preference for the Barbarian for 3 seasons so far. No one has seemed to become bored with that. In fact, the community has been asking for GoD to be WhirlRend for DH’s.
So if one set to rule them all hasn’t been a problem for other classes, I don’t see it as a problem with ours as long as the playstyle is fun and it is with GoD.
Also, generator weaving seems to be easier if you have right at 2 attacks per second. I’m still not sure if I’m getting two shots between strafe but I know for certain that I am getting one at least and that happened only after I lowered my attack speed from 2.14 to 2.00 on the button.
That seems to be the case for me at least.
Hey! I’m using Stand still on Mouse 4, Force move on Space bar. Stand still doesn’t work while strafing, unless I tap one of my generators. Same goes for Whirlwind with manual Rends and Force moving in general - stand still is always on, overridden by the movement and only activated by the skill that you weave in. Just my 2 cents, not sure how the big boys do it.