[2.7.0] List of GoD DH Rework Ideas

Iria-1342 · February 26, 2021, 7:56pm

~~This post is OUTDATED and does not pertain to PTR 2.7.0.73794.~~
Please visit the new thread: [PTR 2.7.0.73794] *NEW* List of GoD DH Rework Ideas for continued discussion on the topic from the standpoint of the current PTR build and more solutions moving forward.

– Original post starts here –

Let me start off by saying the GoD set nerf is a bit of an overshoot. This is also the general consensus among many players of all skill levels and paragons. According to the developer, the intention behind the nerf was to stop the interaction with missile dampening and Hungering Arrow (specifically Devouring Arrow).

Simply put, the 2 pierce cap nerf did not address this issue correctly for several reasons:

The GoD Hungering Arrow build is severely hindered in non-missile dampening situations in moderate to high GRs. This is the main problem in that while speed Nephalem Rifts and speed GRs (2-3 minute runs) are mostly unaffected, 5 minute runs become 7 minute runs, and anything that was perhaps 8+ minutes before is impossible now. Roughly speaking, in 2.6.10, a paragon 5000 DH can do a GR140 with no missile dampening elites, but now that same DH cannot do a GR130.
The Ninth Cirri Satchel remains unaffected with other sets. For example, Unhallowed Essence or Marauder-based builds will still seek missile dampening elites for high GR clears.
The Hungering Arrow - Shatter Shot rune bypasses the 2 pierce cap limit. While this might be a bug (which I reported in the bug report forum already), it seems rather arbitrary to let the extra two arrows that split off from the main one pierce with no limit.

So with these facts in mind, I wish to propose a list of suggestions to address the issue and restore power to the set while keeping it in line with other classes roughly. While any of the following solutions address the developer’s issue, some of the solutions offer other benefits such as less variability in performance or introducing new viable builds.

List of rework ideas INSTEAD of the current 2 pierce cap on GoD set:

Solution 1) Set pierce-cap to 2 on Ninth Cirri Satchel and increase the GoD 6-piece bonus to 40000%. This a nerf/buff that will enhance the build’s use with other primary skills and reduce the performance variance on monster density.

Addresses missile dampening elite issue due to the pierce cap

Enables non-Devouring Arrow runes to be viable

Enables non-Hungering Arrow builds (e.g. Bolas) to be viable

Roughly offsets the damage issue in higher GRs

Less variable performance (not tied to density as much)

Lower GRs and T16 content will be far easier

Speed GRs (2-5 minutes) will be dominated by the GoD set

Non-GoD sets with Hungering Arrow no longer viable

Solution 2) Set pierce-cap to 10 on Ninth Cirri Satchel. This is the “least-intrusive” nerf in that it mostly will go unnoticed (compared to 2.6.10) except in high-density or missile dampening situations.

Addresses missile dampening elite issue due to the pierce cap

Does not affect T16 and speed GRs compared to 2.6.10

High GRs are generally still doable but harder

Devouring Arrow rune remains dominant (less build diversity)

Hungering Arrow builds remain dominant (less build diversity)

Solution 3) Set Ninth Cirri Satchel to grant +65% pierce chance which decays -5% per pierce. This is a variant on solution 2 in that it mostly will go unnoticed (compared to 2.6.10) except in missile dampening situations.

Addresses missile dampening elite issue due to the soft pierce cap

Does not affect T16 and speed GRs compared to 2.6.10

Puncturing Arrow rune now provides a benefit

High GRs are generally still doable but harder

Devouring Arrow rune remains mostly dominant

Hungering Arrow builds remain dominant (less build diversity)

Solution 4) Set pierce-cap to 5 on Ninth Cirri Satchel set and add all runes. This is a variant of of solution 2 in that it promotes more builds but keeps the power of Hungering Arrow intact.

Addresses missile dampening elite issue due to the pierce cap

Can choose element of arrow (slightly more build diversity)

High GRs are still generally doable

Less variable performance (not tied to density as much)

Non-GoD sets with Hungering Arrow still viable

Lower GRs and T16 content will be easier

Speed GRs (2-5 minutes) will be dominated by the GoD set

Hungering Arrow builds remain dominant (less build diversity)

Solution 5) Set pierce-cap to 2 per monster on Ninth Cirri Satchel. This is a variant of solution 2 but with a pierce cap per monster instead of global. Depending on server performance of dynamic memory allocation for arrow objects, this may add server performance issues since arrows must store IDs for every monster they pass through (a variable-length but possibly long list of counters).

Addresses missile dampening elite issue due to the pierce cap

Does not affect T16 and speed GRs compared to 2.6.10

High GRs are still generally doable

May be difficult to implement coding-wise

May cause server performance issues

Devouring Arrow rune remains dominant (less build diversity)

Hungering Arrow builds remain dominant (less build diversity)

Maintains variable performance (heavily reliant on density)

Solution 6) Adjust Devouring Arrow rune to +20% per pierce.

Does not affect T16 and speed GRs compared to 2.6.10

Devouring Arrow rune not as dominant (more build diversity)

Somewhat addresses missile dampening elite issue with slower pierce scaling

High GRs are generally still doable but harder

Hungering Arrow builds remain dominant (less build diversity)

Maintains variable performance (heavily reliant on density)

Solution 7) Set pierce-cap to 3 on Ninth Cirri Satchel, add all runes, and increase the GoD 6-piece bonus to 20000%. This is a hybrid of solutions 1 and 4 in that it promotes more builds but keeps the GoD set more in line with others.

Addresses missile dampening elite issue due to the pierce cap

Can choose element of arrow (slightly more build diversity)

High GRs are still generally doable

Less variable performance (not tied to density as much)

Enables non-Hungering Arrow builds (e.g. Bolas) to be almost viable

Non-GoD sets with Hungering Arrow almost viable

Lower GRs and T16 content will be easier

Speed GRs (2-5 minutes) will be dominated by the GoD set

Solution 8) Remove the missile dampener elite affix in GRs or set pierce chance to 0 inside missile dampening fields. If the specific interaction with Hungering Arrow is the only thing that is causing a problem, this will remove that issue with minimal side effects.

Addresses missile dampening elite issue due to affix or pierce removal

Does not affect anything else balance-wise

High GRs are generally still doable except very high GR

Might positively/negatively affect other classes, but affix is already rare

Devouring Arrow rune remains dominant (less build diversity)

Hungering Arrow builds remain dominant (less build diversity)

GoD set remains dominant (less build diversity)

Maintains variable performance (heavily reliant on density)

So there you have it, a list of several options with varying consequences that can be further addressed with other item or set balances. For example, if I mention that GoD set will be dominant, that could be fixed by adjusting 6-piece set multipliers for the other sets. I will add more to this list if I find new ideas proposed that are significantly different to what I have written already (not just a simple number tweak to the solutions listed).

Personally, I think the hybrid solution 7 offers the best set of pros/cons for the given patch while introducing Bolas and a Shattershot/Devouring Arrow combination to the build. This is desirable since there were absolutely zero Demon Hunter item/set changes in the last two patches. Right now, DH sentiment is very negative and the developers could do more to communicate ideas with the community regarding nerfs to come up with better solutions to problems that arise.

Thank you for reading!

dmkt-1267 · February 26, 2021, 8:44pm

A good list of options.

Based on personal pushes, I recommend solution #1, with the same pierce cap fix to Hungering Arrow’s Shatter Shot rune.

To share my perspective:

The meta Hungering Arrow build evolved into a variant that doesn’t use Stricken. This is due to the Follower buff and much quicker Rift Guardian kill relative to how long the RG took prior to the nerf.
Shatter Shot is still bugged as you’ve mentioned, it is now the outlier of GoD6.
Currently on PTR, Hungering Arrow:Devouring Arrow is as strong as Bolas:Imminent Doom. I can confidently do GR130 with both skills at paragon 5560.
With the new Follower perks, GR130 feels like a push that requires up to 50 keys to complete, just like GR141+ does on live, beatable without missile dampening and without the new Follower perks.
40,000% is the right number for the GoD 6pc bonus because it translates to almost 9GRs – bringing Hungering Arrow and Bolas up to GR138-139, and giving room for some exceptional 1000+ key clears in the realm of GR140-142.
UE6 and M6 can keep the missile dampening gimmick, since the base clear is still lower than GoD6 6pc @ 40,000% – all 3 sets would be balanced.

DiEoxidE-1987 · February 26, 2021, 8:52pm

Pretty presentation. Last night’s stream was mostly a frustrating experience overall. I’m in general consensus with everything written here, especially 6pc buff for clear consistently and build variety.

Well done.

Iria-1342 · February 26, 2021, 8:57pm

Yeah, solution 1 is my second best recommendation. The main issue that I don’t like is that the other sets are still inferior to GoD until they go ahead and patch other things (e.g. Shadow 6 set bonus doubled, another Multishot item like a belt, etc.)

Iria-1342 · February 26, 2021, 11:07pm

Update: added an 8th solution (remove missile dampening from GRs).

sNaKe-2541 · February 26, 2021, 11:30pm

I’m sorry man, you did a great job but proposed too many solutions. you should make one clear recommendation otherwise the devs probably will ignore it

Iria-1342 · February 26, 2021, 11:35pm

The idea is to show the pros and cons of various solutions so the developers can pick something reasonable. While I could have given them just my recommendation, it carries more weight if I show that I have considered various alternatives.

DiEoxidE-1987 · February 26, 2021, 11:45pm

Blizzard in the past have said they like consolidated feedback with as much “targeted” detail as possible. Pros and Cons, while Iria did this in the form of solutions, fits right into that criteria because it highlights the problems in a big picture.

It’s up to the devs to find the actual solution they’d like to apply at the end of the day, but stuff like this would help them narrow down possibilities with fleshed out consequences.

sNaKe-2541 · February 27, 2021, 1:06am

the last 10 patches made pretty clear that they are not interested in that kind of detail. the only thing that really mattered was the fix with the lowest implementation and test effort…

€dit: in case I was unclear: whatever you showed them (8 options, great job!), they will take the one which is the easiest solution for them

DiEoxidE-1987 · February 27, 2021, 1:18am

It can be quite frustrating and often it has, to give lots of feedback, and not seeing any of it make it through a particular patch round, thus pinning a correlation to them not caring etc. This does not mean they aren’t listening.

Case in point, this patch. You know how many years players were asking for changes to solo play? You know how many times making a filter for LB’s have been suggested? We thought all of that fell on deaf ears a long time ago, and here we are…mostly

I don’t expect anything wonderful to come out of this for GoD6, but it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t make the attempt. I just wish blizz makes their intent clear so that we’re not always wondering “wtf” when it comes to changes and philosophies.

Zurtle-6510 · February 27, 2021, 1:33am

Gotta say I’m amused by this since I mentioned it on DiE’s stream and you spent longer than I would’ve expected rejecting it as an idea and now you’ve decided to toss it in there.

I would ask Blizz to look at trying to emulate the physics of Necro’s Bone Spear (Blighted Marrow rune) as a potential in-game inspiration for fixing the missile dampening mechanics. As I understand it, it boils down to a pierces-per-monster limitation.

I frankly don’t give a damn about “build diversity” at this late stage of the game’s life. I want parity with other classes and this latest attempt at a “fix” makes DH a dead class all over again. [Aside from the zDH which means very little to me as someone who hasn’t played groups for years.] It seems unfair that so many other classes have builds that remain stronger than 2.6.x GoD but haven’t even been smashed by the nerfhammer quite so badly. C’mon, Blizzard!

sNaKe-2541 · February 27, 2021, 1:49am

laughs in witch doctor

Iria-1342 · February 27, 2021, 2:32am

I was debating about it since this list was for GoD reworks, that was rather an elite affix rework. But I decided to add it since it does actually solve the interaction that the developers stated. However, there might be more to the story than what the developers said.

TheDarkJedi-1970 · February 27, 2021, 3:03am

Perhaps adjusting/adding these modifiers to help create a solution?:
1: Adding/adjusting the minimum travel distance before hungering arrow is able to change direction.
2: If a max pierce is set, reset the pierce count when the hungering arrow changes direction.
3: Adjusting hungering arrows maximum flight time and/or making this time diminish faster when inside of the missile dampening field.

SimpleDave-1160 · February 27, 2021, 3:32am

Of we could have just left it alone and save a lot of people from writing 100s of posts and spending countless hours on what used to be a minor issue.

Hey it’s your time on your hands so it’s all good I suppose.

I’ll just abandon my DH and play something else for awhile until they fix this.

Iria-1342 · February 27, 2021, 4:00am

I’ll consider adding these as a solution but I need to think a bit on the impact of these. For example, changing the Hungering Arrow’s maximum flight time might could be hard to implement if it’s coded based on distance and there isn’t a simple clock attribute for the arrows.

Thanos-1268 · February 27, 2021, 4:04am

If the problem truly is MD (from the dev’s perspective and that’s the only thing they care to address), why not simply have it so that Hungering Arrow ignores MD? What would this break in the larger picture if HA just travelled at its usual velocity inside the MD field?

Volatility-11129 · February 27, 2021, 4:04am

Given how most top builds don’t fully rely on ‘range’ because eventually all GR pushes will have you facing mobs up in your face, my vote will be for Solution 8.

That way, Blizz don’t have to do much in terms of code modification (it’s the easiest thing they could do) without having to nerf the entire build in itself.

But meh, I’ll just sit back and watch the next iteration of the PTR before proceeding anything related to Diablo III.

TheDarkJedi-1970 · February 27, 2021, 4:09am

If there’s enough coffee, coders can make it happen.

Iria-1342 · February 27, 2021, 4:14am

More like funding and time. It’s quite likely that the developers are split between D3 and one or more of the diablo projects.