[PTR 2.7.0.73794] *NEW* List of GoD DH Rework Ideas

I originally considered simply editing my previous post with the new PTR update (March 4, 2021) but there was already a very long discussion in that thread. I wish to start over with a new list of suggestions on how to address the issues at hand given new input from the developers.

This is a long and analytical post, if you just want to see my proposed solutions, skip ahead to the section marked with :star:s.

:smiley: The Good :+1:
First of all, the relative state of the GoD Hungering Arrow build has improved a little since the last PTR build. The pierce cap incremented by 1 and the 10,000% to 15,000% 6-piece set bonus buff was a step in the right direction. Thank you for listening to our ideas on the matter!

:rage: The Bad :-1:
The Demon Hunter community sentiment remains mostly negative as from the initial PTR patch (with the 2 pierce cap on GoD sets). My clanmate dmkt, has already created a new post (GoD6 Buff Feedback after Patch 2) regarding the sentiment and some GR equivalency numbers as well. The key point is that the nerf is still too harsh in high GRs.

:thinking: The Ugly :japanese_goblin:
Moving forward to increase the power of the GoD Hungering Arrow build has some issues. There doesn’t appear to be a perfect solution at this time given the limited dials the developers have to tune performance. In essence, by changing certain parameters, the high GR issue can be fixed but it might create new issues.

This thread will go into details regarding the reasoning behind my suggestions. I hope that this insight will assist the developers in making an informed decision at the conclusion of this PTR cycle.


Objectives and Parameters

As it stands now, there seem to several goals with the given PTR build. I will list these in priority order but an ideal solution should aim to satisfy as many as possible as simply as possible. Here are the six most important objectives from my perspective that any future tuning after this PTR should aim to achieve:

:red_circle: Objective 1: Missile Dampening elites provide too much power

  • This objective is currently addressed by implementing a pierce cap.
  • Must be satisfied with any proposed solution

:red_circle: Objective 2: GoD Hungering Arrow needs more power for high GR

  • The high-GR power of the build needs to be buffed by ~5 GRs.
  • Must be satisfied with any proposed solution

:orange_circle: Objective 3: GoD Hungering Arrow is strong for low GR

  • The low-GR power of the build should not be buffed significantly.
  • Should be satisfied with any proposed solution

:orange_circle: Objective 4: GoD Hungering Arrow is heavily reliant on Devouring Arrow

  • The current pierce cap has Devouring Arrow maybe 1-2 GRs above Shatter Shot.
  • Should be satisfied with any proposed solution

:yellow_circle: Objective 5: GoD non-Hungering Arrow builds are too weak

  • Bolas and other generators are still behind Hungering Arrow.
  • Would like to be satisfied with any proposed solution

:yellow_circle: Objective 6: Non-GoD builds are too weak

  • Other class sets and builds are behind but within 5-10 GRs.
  • Would like to be satisfied with any proposed solution

Now that we have a list of objectives, what are the parameters we can use to tune and adjust settings to satisfy as many objectives as possible? There are of course MANY parameters to play with but I will list only the simplest ones to adjust here! These would be simple number adjustments and nothing more (no coding of new mechanics, no retroactive nerfs to existing items except Ninth Cirri Satchel).

Parameter 1: Pierce cap on Ninth Cirri Satchel

  • Currently set to 3.

Parameter 2: Damage bonus on Ninth Cirri Satchel

  • Currently set to +450–600% (5.5–7.0x) damage.

Parameter 3: GoD 2-piece set bonus damage

  • Currently set to +200% (3.0x) damage at max momentum.

Parameter 4: GoD 4-piece set bonus movement speed

  • Currently set to +160% movement speed at max momentum.

Parameter 5: GoD 6-piece set bonus damage

  • Currently set to +15,000% (151x) damage.

Parameter 6: Hungering Arrow - Devouring Arrow growth rate

  • Currently set to +70% per pierce.

Parameter 7: Leonine Bow of Hashir or Emimei’s Duffel bonus

  • Currently set to +150% (2.5x) and +175% (2.75x) respectively.

Again, this list is not exhaustive, but a short list of a few things that can be tweaked numerically without introducing new mechanics or creating new bugs. This may seem like a lot to take in, but I will try to propose a few ideas which will tackle different objectives in different priorities!


Effect of Parameters on Objectives

Each of the parameters listed previously will affect the desired objectives positively, negatively, or not much at all. A good description of this section is known as sensitivity analysis but I’ll only do so qualitatively here.

The notation used in the following chart is: :red_circle: = makes worse, :green_circle: = makes better, :white_circle: = does not affect much with the number of circles corresponding roughly to how strong and in what way increasing the parameter will affect the given objective.

Missle Damp. Eff. GoD HA High GR GoD HA Low GR Dev. Arrow Power GoD Non-HA Builds Non-GoD Builds
Inc. NCS pierce cap :white_circle:/:red_circle: :green_circle::green_circle::green_circle: :white_circle: :red_circle::red_circle::red_circle: :red_circle::red_circle::red_circle: :red_circle::red_circle:
Inc. NCS damage :white_circle: :green_circle::green_circle: :red_circle::red_circle: :white_circle: :red_circle::red_circle::red_circle: :red_circle::red_circle:
Inc. GoD 2 bonus :white_circle: :green_circle::green_circle: :red_circle::red_circle: :white_circle: :white_circle: :red_circle:
Inc. GoD 4 bonus :white_circle: :white_circle: :red_circle: :white_circle: :white_circle: :red_circle:
Inc. GoD 6 bonus :white_circle: :green_circle::green_circle: :red_circle::red_circle: :white_circle: :white_circle: :red_circle::red_circle:
Inc. Dev. Arrow bonus :white_circle:/:red_circle: :green_circle::green_circle: :red_circle: :red_circle::red_circle::red_circle: :red_circle: :red_circle:
Inc. Bolas item bonus :white_circle: :white_circle: :white_circle: :white_circle: :green_circle::green_circle: :white_circle:

The caveats to the missile dampening objective is that if the pierce cap is lifted too much (perhaps over 20) or Devouring Arrow scales too quickly it can become a problem again.

So what can we conclude from this table?

  1. Increasing the pierce cap will help with the high GR situation, without affecting the low GR situation, BUT it makes Devouring Arrow (and the GoD set in general) even more dominant among DH builds, lessening diversity.
  2. Decreasing the Ninth Cirri Satchel’s damage multiplier will tone down the Hungering Arrow damage overall to potentially allow for more build diversity.
  3. Increasing either the GoD 2-piece and 6-piece bonuses roughly achieve the same purpose, but the 2-piece bonus could potentially be used with a different set (e.g. Natalya/GoD hybrid), so it won’t detriment build diversity as much as the 6-piece bonus.
  4. Decreasing the GoD 4-piece movement speed bonus will mostly slow lower GRs which are more speed-limited than high GRs which are typically damage- or toughness-limited.
  5. Decreasing the Devouring Arrow scaling factor will hurt high GRs but will lessen the dominance of the rune if the pierce cap is increased further.
  6. Increasing either or both of the Bolas items will increase build diversity for GoD builds and, to a lesser extent, other sets without affecting much else.

:star::star::star::star::star::star::star::star::star::star::star:
Possible Solutions!
:star::star::star::star::star::star::star::star::star::star::star:

Here I will list my top 3 solutions which will address different objectives to a varying extent. The goal here is to propose 3 such combinations of the parameters I listed with the hope that at least one of them addresses the main concerns of the developers in deciding how to balance the class for this season. Next season, there may be more reworked sets and other major changes, so this list of solutions may not reflect what developers have in mind beyond season 23.

For simplicity, each solution has only 3-4 parameters tuned! The baseline is the current PTR build which includes the 3-pierce cap on Ninth Cirri Satchel and the 15,000% GoD 6-piece set bonus.

Solution 1) Increase pierce cap from 3 to 4, increase GoD 6-piece bonus from 15,000% to 20,000%, and decrease GoD 4-piece bonus from 8% to 5%.

  • :green_circle: Maintains Missile Dampening issue resolved
  • :green_circle: Boosts damage in high GRs by about 4.8 GRs
  • :yellow_circle: Boosts damage for lower GRs, but offset by less speed
  • :red_circle: Maintains Devouring Arrow as best HA rune
  • :red_circle: Maintains GoD HA as best GoD build
  • :red_circle: Maintains GoD as best DH set

Solution 2)* Increase pierce cap from 3 to 8, increase GoD 6-piece bonus from 15,000% to 40,000%, decrease Ninth Cirri Satchel damage from 450–600% to 200-250%, and decrease Devouring Arrow scaling from 70% to 10% per pierce.

  • :green_circle: Maintains Missile Dampening issue resolved
  • :green_circle: Boosts damage in high GRs by about 4.5 GRs (with all DA pierces)
  • :green_circle: Lower GRs roughly unaffected (assuming DA 4 pierces)
  • :green_circle: Devouring Arrow not strongest rune in all high GR situations
  • :green_circle: GoD non-Hungering Arrow builds now a viable alternative
  • :yellow_circle: Requires retroactive interpolation of damage range
  • :red_circle: Requires several adjustments to items, sets, skills
  • :red_circle: Maintains GoD as best DH set

Solution 3) Increase GoD 2-piece bonus from 10% to 20% per second of momentum, decrease GoD 4-piece bonus from 8% to 5%, increase either Bolas item from 150%/175% to 400% (roughly double power).

  • :green_circle: Maintains Missile Dampening issue resolved
  • :green_circle: Boosts damage in high GRs by about 3.25 GRs
  • :yellow_circle: Boosts damage for lower GRs, but offset by less speed
  • :yellow_circle: Devouring Arrow only slightly ahead in high GR situations
  • :green_circle: GoD Bolas now a viable alternative
  • :red_circle: Maintains GoD as best DH set, but Natalya/GoD hybrid improved

*: Solution 2 was adjusted with input from dmkt.


Conclusions

While the list of 3 solutions I propose are not exhaustive, I hope that the list of tune-able parameters and desirable objectives proves useful in determining a suitable balance change that will be agreeable for both the developers’ goals and players’ sentiments.

Regarding DH performance in groups, the analysis and suggestions in this post primarily focus on the solo GR aspect of the build. While the lower solo GRs are generally fine as is, for higher group GRs, the current PTR nerfs have been more drastic than that of solo since density in a group setting can be made higher via the use of pull-in effects from other players. That said, addressing the high-GR issues mentioned for solo builds will simultaneously address the group GR issues somewhat as well.

I know this post is a bit much for most people to read through but this is my genuine effort to best relay what I know, using the skills I have, for the Diablo 3 community.

Thank you for reading!

34 Likes

I think that you covered “Lower GRs” performance only for solo runs right?

Change hurts GoD performance in 4 man speed (under 3 min) runs.

1 Like

I am for simple solution similiar to solution 1:
Only
Increase pierce cap from 3 to 5-6
then it is not necessary to lower run speed

1 Like

Great post! Even with the new patch the GoD build is totally useless!

I am wondering about the estimates on pierces that you are using. We have all seen the youtube video posted in these forums where they did a screen by screen replay and calculated 40+ pieces in a relatively small monster pull. When I was pushing in season 21 I usually pulled 4 to 5 times the number of monsters that were in that video into one big pull and grouped them with 2 Ess of Johan (1 on me and 1 on follower) so I would estimate 100-200 pierces and it was still taking minutes to melt the mobs. Why are we talking about such low numbers 2-10 for pierce limits? Even with a pierce limit of 10, the arrow wouldn’t even make it to the opposite side of the mob let alone make a return trip. Shouldn’t we be talking about a pierce limit of around 80-100 to get the GR clear down from 150 to around 140? 2-10 seems way to low.

1 Like

Damage output of GOD still very bad. dh is dead, will be by far the worst class after this patch.

2 Likes

There should be a column for GoD place in group play. Not necessarily in META, just group play in general.

Another column to compare GoD to the high tier builds from the other classes. If our best recommendations keep us 10 or 15 GR’s behind the other classes we are not doing the class any favors.

And finally there is the fun factor, which rework will make the build the most fun to play. LoD RF was/is a very powerful build, but it was not very fun to play. If the ‘fix’ to this GoD nerf makes it powerful, but a bit of boring drudgery to play, then the build will basically be abandoned for something more interesting.

How many ‘viable’ HA runes are necessary to make GoD a diverse set? UE MS has two, and one is pretty much only used by the top end. S6 has two for routine play, and a 3rd that works for RGK. N6/M4 hybrid has two runes that are used by us folks who enjoy that build. So will having two runes that are run by most players going to be enough to satisfy the ‘build diversity’ endpoint?

I would like GoD to be a fun and powerful build that puts the DH class in the same level of top GR clears as the other classes. I would like the build to be playable with at least a couple playstyles. I would also like our other sets/builds to be brought up to this level. The only problem is that after all these years, I have very little faith that much effort will be made to balance across the class at a high enough level to make us competitive with other classes.

2 Likes

Okay, fair enough I could have added an objective for group play but group meta is another story in that it can’t necessarily be planned for. To keep things simple, I aimed at the solo play experience. The group level play was nerfed a little more but the proposed solutions to high-GR buffs will accordingly help the group situation.

I assume every hit lands with Devouring Arrow. Thus the total damage is the sum (1 + 0.7*n) for n = 0 to the pierce cap. With a pierce cap of 2, the expected damage is 5.1 times the first hit. With a pierce cap of 3, the expected damage is 8.2 times the first hit. Of course, once the pierce cap is a bit higher, it isn’t guaranteed all hits will occur before the arrow disappears so this estimate only works in density later on.

The reason I want the pierce cap to stay moderate is to remove the reliance on density as much and make the build more fun to play overall (you don’t need to fish GRs as much or gather density as hard).

It’s not as low as you might think. Sure in high density situations, the pierces can exceed 50 and grow the multiplier to enormous levels. However, in low density situations and the Rift Guardian, the pierces generally stay quite low. The cubic density scaling of Devouring Arrow with area damage is one of the reasons that the build in 2.6.10 feels like trash without density. By limiting the pierces and buffing the base damage, we can make the build more fun more of the time.

That is indeed another option, but as I listed in the parameter/objective chart, doing so increases the reliance on Devouring Arrow which limits build diversity. Demon Hunters have so far been okay with the narrow build diversity, but for the longevity of the game, we shouldn’t have season after season of the same thing. For reference, as it stands currently, this will be the third season in a row that GoD HA with Devouring Arrow is THE ONLY viable high GR DH build.

This is a valid point but if the developers want to bring all classes in line with each other, they need to do so at the same time. It isn’t fair to the players to nerf a few classes while keeping other classes (e.g. Crusaders and Wizards) at an exceptionally performing level.

If this PTR included nerfs to all overperforming builds and had a developer comment stating that this was their intention for this patch, then I would be more inclined to agree on the inter-class balance as an objective for this patch.

As DiEoxidE had mentioned late last night during his stream, he reluctantly admits that the current PTR patch put DH in the paragon 5000, low GR130 level. However, since there are other classes quite a bit higher with no nerfs (e.g. Crusader with paragon 5000 at the GR140 level), it hurts the feelings of a lot of DH players who have already tasted the glory of GR140+ at paragon 3000 who are now relegated to high GR120s.


With all these points, I will adjust the OP to reflect on these comments made so far. Thank you for the input everyone!

3 Likes

Have you considered just limiting/disabling pierce as an effect of Missile Dampening?

1 Like

take care of post title, you missed the patch number, last digit is not 4, but 6

@Tebo Yes I have. This was in my earlier list of solutions, but as we know from the direction that the developers are taking in the new PTR update, missile dampening was not the only concern.

The developers had every opportunity to correct the issue and address missile dampening specifically without affecting anything else but deliberately chose not to. This can be inferred to mean that missile dampening was but one issue among many that they were trying to address.

I checked again, it shows as 73794 in the Battlenet launcher for me.

Given the crater they left in Rathma I don’t really see anything to support a higher purpose beyond a sad chain of oopsies, unless their motivations are just so far removed from what people actually want that they can be safely discarded.

My best guess would be that the developers have an end goal vision for the game, but unfortunately don’t have a clean way to get there step-by-step.

Edit: For example, they might want to remodel an entire house but destroying each room one at a time will severely inconvenience whoever’s room that is!

1 Like

Tracking mud all over the house while they get that sorted is a poor state of affairs.

1 Like

Yeah I know that it feels bad. I just wish we had more context and commentary from the developers so that we could better help them with their goals while keeping the fun aspects of the builds alive. I try my best with what I’m given but again, that depends on what the developers’ goals are.

2 Likes

tbh, given the box you’ve built to operate in here, I see no problem with what you’re doing. It’s nice to think maybe if you just find the right words you’ll see those patch notes that make it all worthwhile.

Snowball’s chance in Hell usually, but can’t hurt to try. At least you put a lot of thought into GoD this round.

Hello Iria,

I see you’re focusing on not making the low GR clears too crazy with a high GoD6 bonus.

Let’s assume GoD6 @ 40,000% is non-negotiable. Let’s also assume the GR120 clears should not go under 3:00.

The other levers are:

  1. Pierce Cap on Ninth Cirri Satchel.
  2. Damage % on Ninth Cirri Satchel
  3. Hungering Arrow runes.

Here’s what I can share with you for GR120 speeds @ 15,000%

  • Bolas:Imminent Doom: ~6 minutes
  • Hungering Arrow:Serrated Arrow: ~5:00 (no damage mod)
  • Hungering Arrow:Devouring Arrow: 3:15-3:45

We do not have to worry about Bolas at all. Hungering Arrow is the problem. So let’s address that. I propose implementing the following 3 changes as the silver bullet approach:

  1. Raise GoD6 to 40,000% (+6 GRs)
  2. Reduce the damage of Ninth Cirri Satchel to 250%. (-5GRs)
  3. Reduce Devouring Arrow scaling from 70% to 10% per pierce AND increase the Pierce cap of NCS to 10. (+5GRs)

On the frontend, up to 3 pierces, it is a net nerf of -4GRs, meaning that 3:15 Devouring Arrow GR120 clears will go towards 5:00 minutes. That also means the rift guardian kills will go back to ~3-4 minutes in high push.

If fighting in density, the max clear should be GR139.

Regarding the rest of your post, here are small corrections.

This is supposed to be GoD2 bonus, a tiny typo.

This is what we had talked about in the original 'How to Nerf thread.’

I’m confused about part of Solution #1. The GoD 4pc bonus doesn’t really do anything from a damage standpoint other than allow Strafe to produce Primary Skill projectiles, are you trying to slow down the run speed?

The tables look nice, very creative.

1 Like

That’s an interesting idea, I didn’t add the NCS multiplier as a parameter, but you’re right it certainly is one. The only challenge would be to retroactively interpolate 450-600% → 200-250% or something. It’s a simple linear formula (y = x/3 + 50, where x is the current value and y is the new value) but I’m not sure how common the developers like to do such tweaks to existing items.

I’ll fix it if you fix tuny → tiny.

Yes, precisely. The idea was to offset the speed of the build a little in lower GRs since we get more damage. This would then entice players to use more movement options (e.g. Tactical Advantage) in lieu of more damage options (e.g. Archery, Ambush, etc.) to try and offset it.

Thanks, I figure it’s easier to read with colors and highlights but it does take more time to write of such posts.

2 Likes

I updated solution 2 to reflect your idea dmkt. I also added the NCS damage multiplier as another parameter but caution that the solution, while fixing a lot of issues, does require several more changes. I tweaked the 3 -> 10 pierces to 3 -> 8 since that provides roughly a 4.5 GR boost instead of the 6 GR boost.

I appreciate the effort you put into this topic, but unfortunately still too complicated. every developer that will have a look at it will immediately pick solution 1