Why should paladin be the only class in the game to have 2 mandatory raid buffs?
I get what you mean but Ret aura was never the solution.
and why not, since it really fits the class fantasy?
paladins were always a buff / aura class, till blizzard decided that we shouldnât have raid wide blessings anymore.
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Iâve learned two very disturbing things this week
And frankly 
this spec is going to the dumpster if we donât see changes soon
âWhy shouldnât we be an exception?â
âHow dare they apply a rule to us that they apply to everyone elseâ
Weâre not entitle to anything.
The era where paladins brought multiple buffs was 1 where there were 40/25man raid and where there were 9-10 classes.
They added 4 classes since the beginning of WoW, it might not have been an issue for a 40/25 raids but it kind of become something you need to be aware of on 20man groups with 13 classes.
Believe it or not, they try to make this game somewhat for everyone.
One of the ways they try to do this at the top end of raiding if by incentivizing mythic team to have at least 1 (not 2) of every classes.
We still have plenty of blessing but their problem is their impact is diluted over larger groups, itâd be interesting to have less powerful version that affect more people.
My opinion was always the Retribution Aura was never powerful enough to be a raid must have nor an M+ must have, certainly not a pvp must have. Just a nice little mild bonus you forget is there. Much like the multitude of JV nerfs, deleting RA just didnt make sense. Having RA as an option, good, but it wasnt better than Ret deserved. Now a real problem, FV in pvp seems to heal enemies it is so weak. Doing literally twice FV damage with almost any offensive button I push as MM in pvp. No one fears Ret in pvp and it is killed first because it dies fast, not because it is threatening.
yup, thats exactly it, and much more why it doesnât make sense of why they just simply removed it from the game.
unlike mr. ben is saying, the ret aura was never mandatory in any ambient, it was just a nice niche buff to have, not enough to make any group take a ret, but it would be nice to, was never as strong as dhs or monks.
now, as ive been saying from the start, our single target feels very weak, i donât play pvp, but iâm constantly seeing people asking for buffs on FV, and imo an ability that costs 3 holy power should do damage, should be strong, not be weaker than a tick of a passive dot or a holy power generator.
but, we never know what blizzard thinks, they are very fast to nerf us, but not so fast to correct their own mistakes or revert over the top nerfs, i would say on pve mythic + we are fine, but on pure st situations, the situation feels very bad
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Yes it does makes sense if you bother to understand and listen to what
- they said about it
- what their vision is of group buffs in a group enviroment/raid
Here, read the note blizzard literally made about it
Developerâs note: As part of our process of examining raid buffs, weâve come to the decision to remove Retribution Aura in order to reduce restrictions on group compositions. We believe that the utility options additional Paladins are able to bring is sufficiently valuable without becoming oppressive.
They did flipped flop on this in the past though, itâs not like its forever set in stone.
But we canât say it doesnât make sense when they are transparent about the fact that, right now, they donât want a class bringing multiple raid buffs.
Paladin had 2 buffs they needed them at 1, doesnât matter that Ret aura wasnât âthat big an increaseâ , which is debatable btw because 5% decaying over 30sec on 14 DPS definitely is noticeable.
Itâs largely a constant average of 2,5%.
If 3% vers on Druid warrant having a druid in group than Ret aura warranted 2 Paladins, for competitive groups at least.
When RWF is over they usually nerf the bosses way down but still, every little bit helps as long as the player is competent.
but being completely honest, i donât know if balancing the game around the few chosen ones that do content that most of the community will not even touch, is very healthy.
like, itâs nice to have them being transparent, i didnât see that post before, but still feels a little bit shallow, like, we gave you something cool, but now we are taking it away, but at the same time we are giving new buffs to other classes cause you already have too much.
but what is too much? that is what i donât really get, but welp, it is what it is.
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ret aura was absolutely mandatory in raid. what arey ou talking about
This is a fair argument, as always. Iâm also wary of things being tailored to this minority.
That being said, we most not forget that some people wants to play at this level and that theyâd appreciate playing the classes and specs they like to without being locked out by compositions ârequirementsâ.
It is a fine line.
Their communications arenât always the best, to say the least.
We could quote the line when they removed the talent (Long arm of the law) that gave us 30% MS on judgement which was excruciatingly tone deafâŚ
Let me see if I can find it. Pretty sure I made a post about it at the time.
Here it is
It was wild to be told this.
Iâve never felt so unheard before. 
That was before DF launch by the way and so before Ret rework.
Funnily enough, some of things suggested in this thread were implemented in 10.0.7
i mean theyre in the right tho, ret already has so much things and its movement kit is already insanely strong and its getting stronger in .5. i just dont see a reason to put stuff like long arm of the law considering judgement cd is so low
Developerâs note: We recognize that movement is fun and feels good when attached to short cooldown buttons. That said, our goal for Retribution Paladin is to keep their strengths in removing things that hinder their mobility, or to charge into battle on their Divine Steed, not to give them a short duration burst of movement on a very short cooldown.
Weird. I never heard them say this to rogues with a go fast button not unlike steed, but usable from the safety of invisibility, faster passive talent movement, 2 shadow steps, usable on friendly targets, Shadowstrike, Death from AboveâŚ
Things are always changing, maybe Retâs time to move in pvp will come one day.
This was in 2022, before the rework.
It was in the beta phase of DF development.
Which at the time rang really hollow in context.
people still want us to have more movement, tho. as if our movement isnt insane anyways
Ok but thatâs not the subject I was referring to.
I was giving an example of poor communications. Specifically the example is about mobility in a context where our mobility wasnât all that good but it could have been about anything else.
The point was the tone deaf response.
Warrior is just as simple as ret, and does better in both ST and AOE.
Warriors could use another nerf.
Donât nerf me. But also donât nerf ret.
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Letâs see your parses then man if paladin is doing so amazing. You can make ret work absolutely but youâre forced to spec into Herald. Templar is a huge loss in damage when it wasnât even over performing, it was keeping up with other melee. Also I never said there was different balancing teams please go back and read 
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By accident I did one rss round as templar (i won) did 22M damage the lowest of the 4. Next round I go herald easy 56M damage. Herald pads a lot but also buffs spenders and dawnlight hurts.
Mind you the big discrepancy is all about HoL being just a single button press vs all the baked damage herald has without cares.
Herald needs nerfs, the base spec and templar need buffs
Ret situation has nothing to do with how I personally do on it, wth are you talking about?
The first few weeks we were in the top 5, boosted by instrument, but still top 5.
At best you could have said we didnât know exactly how we were doing but making a definitive statement about whether we were âamazingâ or not was preposterous.
And while we did drop since then, weâre still in the top 10, which is absolutely fine.
We could be dead last and be fine to if the mean difference between the top performing spec and the last is 5% or less
We rarely see that but these positions needs to be put in context.
They both work and can do similar, itâs not about the tuning, itâs about the inner workings.
Dawnlight can be applied seemingly from everywhere where FV can hit.
Its uptime is crazy good.
Comparatively, whilst HoL is a big part of Templar damage, so are the Empyrean Hammers, but they will only hit if youâre within 8yd of a target.
Thatâs what makes Templar looks bad, whenever you have to move they donât hit.
Which then cascades into less Light deliverance stacks and fewer free HoL, which then cascade into less EH.
What Templar needs is a QoL change so that EH can hit from further and ideally hitting your main target.
And probably reducing the capstone stack down from 60.
I know you didnât, this is me telling you there are.
There are 2 separate teams balancing the specs.
One is doing it for the âbaseline gameâ that affects PVE and PVP, BUT doesnât care (somewhat) about the effect on PVP.
BecauseâŚ
The second team takes what first did and re-balance it specifically for what they want from specs in PVP.
Regardless of what the baseline game does, PVP will either nerf, buff or do nothing depending on what they want from the spec specifically in PVP.
Before the rework, I would have been absolutely on board saying someone was keeping paladin down for some obscure reason.
After the rework there was a clear philosophy shift, I donât think it is true anymore.
But they still hold on to Instrument and some other weird talents because reasons and it just makes it harder to discern where Ret stands.
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