Sucks being the lackey of the evil leader, I guess.
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Self fulfilling prophecy
Alliance: Those forsaken are gonna do something evil like attack us or something bad!
Forsaken: Hey guys lets help the world by fighting the Legion and getting the Aegis
Alliance does a surprise attack out of no where, that helps no one during THE world ending invasion
Forsaken: Well, we wanted to help you champion truly, but we’re not gonna just let them smack us and get away with it, now we have to Burn their crops and blight the earth, I wish it didn’t have to be so but…man we have to do it now.
Alliance: See I told you they’d do something bad, aren’t you glad we intervened when we didn’t need to.
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That would work out logically, if it weren’t for the fact that Sylvanas had been planning to do something evil from the get go, and the Alliance was stopping her.
“Evil” You people keep throwing this word around, if anything she was going to do a good thing, a Heroic thing that would of been a massive boon to the Forsaken and Horde, hell at the time it would of been a massive benefit for everyone.
Forsaken being the leading force, because they have troops that can essentially drop but be brought back, or just be insanely durable.
Gives everyone else much needed breathing room on gathering their forces.
Also Odyn wasn’t doing anything with them anyway…
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That’s the thing though. Genn Greymane wouldn’t have cared one bit if Sylvanas were legit doing something to fight the Legion or if she were carrying evil plots. He was out for blood, pure and simple.
It’s an age old pattern with Alliance and their attitudes towards the Horde and Blizzard’s attitude towards both that’s been going since Adm. Proudmoore. They get to start a war out of pure revenge and hate that later gets “vindicated” by someone on the Horde being bad.
So now I’m curious what excuses Blizzard is going to provide the Alliance so they can be “right” again with their next little sneak attack that gets swept under the rug.
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This is almost correct. You are entirely correct that Genn was hunting Sylvanas, and was not going to let her go without attacking her. However as Alliance you learn in Azsuna that Sylvanas is seeking some great power for herself, which forms a reasonable pretext for opposing her. It’s not later vindicated, it is vindicated prior to every encountering her.
Before, after, it makes little difference. If they had gone as purely a “gather intel on what Sylvanas is up to” mission it might have been a different story. Genn and Rogers turned it into a search and destroy no matter what orders might say or not say. That they got their “Get out of looking like jerks for free” card before hand is just added convenience.
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But Genn clearly never hears about this because he admits right up until the last quest in Stormheim that he doesn’t know what Sylvanas is doing.
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For the love of everything that is good and evil, I wish people would stop trying to use this as an argument point,
Genn and Rogers never bring up the journal,
The journal wasn’t clear about what was happening,
The horde and Alliance can obtain the Journal,
Genn and others outright say they have no idea what the Blight is going on until they’re about 5 minutes from finding out by the end of the questing zone.
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At least he didn’t claim that the journal clearly says Sylvanas wants val’kyr, which it doesn’t.
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True, but he and others might as well have for whenever this point is brought up.
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Except the Morgenthau plan isn’t a good analogy for what what Alliance players are talking about.
It was hardly a punishment for what Hitler did. It was milder than what followed WW I, it was abandoned quickly, and then substituted with the opposite, aid. The idea that is present a real life analog to the Alliance punishing the Horde over Teldrasil is not credible.
The Nuremberg trials were the method by which moral punishment was meted out. And, notably, that was restricted to people who committed actual direct crimes. Not people who were merely “German”.
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They don’t know exactly what Sylvanas is up to. They know that she is up to something, and the Alliance quests leading up to the showdown with Sylvanas have attempts to figure out what is going on.
I don’t know, a plan that would have led to the effective killing of 25,000,000 people is no less bad than what some people here are calling for in retaliation.
I myself would say yes: Rebuild Gilneas, rebuild Ashenvale, rebuild Darkshore, build Hyjal as a new 100% Nightelf Area, kick the horde out of this areas, and change it in the game and on top of that kill Sylvanas would actually be a good step towards rebuilding and please the most people atleast.
Really retribution, well, maybe one day it will come, for a future plot, but now it would be out of place. But at least it would be a start to rebuild the world and take the wind out of the sails of hard-core fans of both sides, especially then if this happened paralell to a rebuilding of the forsaken with capturing Alterac as new “Core Area”, rectake Lordaeron and Tirisfall will be damaged…for ever ingame, (Like Teldrassil, like Stratholme, like Theramore)
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Quite late in the quest chain, they start to suspect it. They don’t start their attacks with that knowledge or assumption.
“Making the Rounds”:
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Making_the_Rounds#Alliance
Sky Admiral Rogers says: Three days ago, the Forsaken fleet set sail from Durotar, heading straight for the Broken Isles. We think Sylvanas Windrunner herself may be among them.
Sky Admiral Rogers says: We are to track them from a safe distance. We may engage, but only if the situation demands.
Sky Admiral Rogers says: I strongly suspect the situation will demand it.
Genn Greymane says: It had better.
Genn Greymane says: I am not in the habit of tracking prey unless I intend on killing it.
No hint there of suspicion of a plot; they just want to attack.
Then after the crash has been dealt over the course of a longish quest chain with and Genn is established at Greywatch in Stormheim, he sends the PC out with this comment:
“Combustible Contagion”:
https://www.wowhead.com/quest=39060/combustible-contagion
“It is true that we may have a lead on Sylvanas. Though I want nothing more than to get my hands on the Banshee Queen, the situation here at Greywatch requires immediate attention. Yesterday, a regiment of guards returned with word of Forsaken forces in the woods. Several of them bore signs of a blight, similar to the one we endured in Gilneas. It would appear these Forsaken seek to unleash this blight upon Greywatch. Seek out their caches and destroy them, before the blight overtakes us!”
Nothing about Sylvanas being out to gain power, and he’s still just focused on attacking her for general (i.e. the usual) reasons. In the next quest, he asks you to try to figure out what’s going on:
“Whispers from the Dark”
https://www.wowhead.com/quest=39061/whispers-from-the-dark
"We still have little knowledge of the Horde’s activities in the region, but I’m hoping you can help change that. Lately the woods have been crawling with Sylvanas’ agents. The few we have taken out carried orders from her Dark Rangers, who are no doubt in command of her forces here. While you’re on the hunt, keep an eye out for any scouting orders. They may help us pinpoint Sylvanas’ objective in the area."
I’d say this is the very earliest you could claim that Genn might “know that she is up to something,” and that’s long after he arrived in Stormheim.
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Retribution against who? Retribution against those who were responsible, such as Hitler and his supporters, is fine and may well happen (my view is the Sylvanas is the Guldan replacement).
Retribution against the Horde in general? That is just retribution on a racial basis. Which is immoral.
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:shrug:
The originally proposed order of the zones is Azsuna, then Valsharah, then Stormheim. At the end of the Azsuna questline, you find the Captain’s log that reveals that Sylvanas is seeking sort of power in Stormheim. The turn in explicitly says the intel is important, and will be given directly to Genn. While they don’t explicitly mention it later, that at least is probably at least in part due to the change from a specific order, to allowing us to choose our starting zone.
The best objection to it is that both Horde and Alliance can recover the Captain’s Log in Azsuna, and there is no sign of which side is canon. If it is in fact, the Horde’s side of Azsuna that is canon, then that obviously would mean Genn has no proof beforehand that Sylvanas’ is up to something. As it stands it is ambiguous, with only vague mentions in the questline about ‘reports’ that Sylvanas’ forces are searching for something.
In either case, either the Alliance did have a hint that Sylvanas was up to something, and the unofficial orders to keep an eye on Sylvanas’ reflect that, or if they didn’t, their natural suspicion over Sylvanas’ motives led them to stop a plot that would have been immediately inimical to the forces of the Broken Isles repelling the Legion, and in the long term stopping Sylvanas’ from realizing her plans of genocide.
I’m aware of that. But the Stormheim storyline as it currently stands in the game does not reflect any assumption that Genn knows about the journal from Azsuna. If that ever was part of his reasoning, it’s been written out.
:shrugs back:
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Sigh … so than what it effectively boils down to is that the Orcs were doomed the moment the Draenei landed on their planet. Largely because they were considered too primitive to properly understand the cruel reality that the Draenei through settling on Draenor brought upon then. One of the great leaders of the Eradar people was apparently helpless enough to justify his evacuation of his people, while the Orcs are therefore condemned by that same action. They’re too stupid or primitive to understand, thus they don’t get the luxury of surviving the destruction of their world that the Dreanei’s presence did hurry upon them.
Which is ironic then that a group considered too “primitive” to understand the realities of what the Draenei brought to their doorstep, are still considered monsters for not being intelligent enough to not have their culture, faith, and health used against them by those same forces. Seems to me, the moment the Draenei landed on Draenor, the Orcish people were damned no matter what. And that their extinction was far less optional than the Draenei’s. Which I suppose in turn means that a Draenei life is just functionally worth more than an Orcs. Far more in fact.
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If someone comes to you, a species you have never seen before and tells you: There is a Universal War raging out there that has destroyed countless worlds, with the knowledge you have now, would you believe him?
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