I don’t know, if we agree that the orcs are too dumb to understand Universal Forces, then we should also agree they cannot be held accountable for being manipulated by those forces.
Doesn’t seem fair to have it both ways.
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It is the initial scenario that is at stake. Droide said the draenei did not inform the orcs, when the draenei landed on Draenor, orcs were far from understanding - really understanding - what was going on. Just as we, as Real Humankind, have someone who would tell us: Hey, there’s a war going on out there, thousands of worlds are burning, we would also tell him: “Picture or didn’t happen”.
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Right, but the functional basis of my argument (my issue with this) was the total absolving of the Draenei in this sad state of events, while the dogmatic refusal to give anything of the sort to the Orcs. The Draenei (like all Alliance races) get the benefit of the doubt, the Orcs are shackled with their crimes even up through BfA (its still an ever present part of the Orcish experience).
It was simultaneously the right thing that the Draenei did not attempt to warn the Orcs (because they were seen as too primitive to understand), while the Orcs are still condemned as monsters due to being manipulated by those same forces they were judged they couldn’t comprehend. That is my issue here. The total whitewashing of one, with the rigid condemnation of the other.
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morality isn´t allways fair. You have a Problem with it, fine, but the Story is what it is. Their “sin” did not come from ONE event, it is the Expierience from Draenor - to WC1- to WC2 and from there to WC3, which framed them. Not a single event let the orcs get to these monsters in the eyes of the world, but all they have done since the days of Draenor.
The orcs were seen as monsters on Azeroth, and by the story, long before the draenei were even known. Worse still, they still consider the draenei as their mortal enemies. Thrall tells in Lord of the Clan how he is more or less concerned about the orcs’ mortal enemy having come into the world.
The genocide of the Draenei and the First War were a direct consequence of the eye of KJ being brought upon Draenor by the Draenei, and using those Universal Forces against them to turn them into monsters. The Second War was a direct consequence of the First, with the Orcish people having their minds free’d on a world that wants revenge for what they did while under the influence of the Legion. So, Doomhammer decided to strike first.
Frankly, your argument comes off like your simply ascribing morality to RACE; and that the only conceivable way that the Evil By Birth Orcs could have proved they weren’t evil, was by quietly dying on Draenor while the Dreanei escaped; leaving them with the bill. Strange that Gul’Dan is essentially the savior of the entire Orcish Race, as well as responsible for their enslavement.
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The orcs were doomed either way, unless you want to argue that if the Draenei hadn’t crashed on Draenor, that the Legion would have looked at the orcs and gone, “Welp, better leave these guys alone.”
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So, tell me, what whould change if the Draenei told the Orcs the whole Situation, if they are not able to Understand it? Either way, they would still tricked, because they beliefe in their ancestors
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This is an assumption. It’s possible that Velen could have found a way to fight back against the Legion long before they happened upon Draenor.
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No, it’s not.
If you say so…
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Can you describe a plausible chain of events that led to Velen defeating the Legion prior to coming to Draenor, without creating something out of whole cloth?
They wouldn’t have been left so exposed to having their cultural beliefs exploited by KJ? Or prone to believing in their desperation of the Blood Plague that it was the Draenei responsible? But, no, the Orcs were doomed, and they are an inferior species to the Draenei. Which is why its totally acceptable to expect the entire Orcish people to die to the evils the Draenei brought upon Draenor, but also for the Dreanei to escape the destruction of their own planet … to their people.
I also despise the justification “That the Legion was gonna come to Draenor anyway”. Maybe? Draenor has no World Soul and has no remaining sufficiently powerful magical races to call attention to it. It also has a shocking lack of Void corruption and usage. The Legion knew where friggen Azeroth was and it still took them 10k years to finally try to mount a slightly half-invested invasion. And it has the most potent World Soul in the entire setting as far as we’re aware. There was no way to guarantee that such a low priority planet like Draenor would have been hit anytime soon. A thousand years? 10 thousand years? More? Enough time for the Orcish people’s to develop enough to have their own means off their doomed planet, like the Draenei had?
Arguments like these begin and end with Draenei = Good, Orc = Bad. Which is why it was perfectly forgivable that the Draenei didn’t warn the Orcs about the cosmological forces at play (cuz they were too stupid and primitive to understand anyway), while the Orcs will forever be condemned by being manipulated by those forces the were too stupid and primitive to ever comprehend.
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Can you tell me how long it would have taken the Legion to find Draenor otherwise, given no world soul?
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Exactly as long as it took them to find it this time, since Talgath already found it.
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How should the draenei know, how kj will act, if they have no future seeing prophet anymore?
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They know he’s been hunting them for thousands of years, they don’t need a prophet to tell them he’s coming for them again. Like, they knew they were coming one way or another, but did nothing to really counter that?
Hell, the idea that they couldn’t have raised up the Orcs and prepared them because they were too primitive is sort of absurd when you realize what their patrons the Naaru did for them? The only real reason they didn’t that I can think of is either: A) they were afraid the Orcs demand they leave; or B) they planned on bailing the moment they got a whif of the Legion, leaving every race on Draenor to pick up the tab. Which is downright horrific tbh.
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Or they were worried if they told the orcs they had enemies who were after them, some ambitious and evil soul would get it into his head to go looking for them. And the Draenei weren’t planning on leaving, because they were stuck.
Then all the more reason to try to build up the peoples of Draenor if you’re backed into a corner? Truly, the absurd argument that Velen and Draenei were powerless to stop the majority of their people from joining the Legion, yet somehow while knowing that KJ was still hunting (and being “trapped” on Draenor) the expectation that the “too primitive to warn Orc’s” would somehow be able to resist the Legion and not be used as weapons against them … is nuts.
Jeezus … why do I even bother. The Alliance and their races are the flawless paragons of every moral virtue ever conceived by man. They aren’t allowed flaws, or mistakes.
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It’s very dumb, but the Draenei legitimately thought that they had finally given the Legion the slip.
In what way is it absurd to say that a minority can’t prevent a majority from deciding to do something?
As to the rest, yes, the argument that the orcs were too primitive is dumb. The people making it are also dumb. The facts are that first, the Draenei thought they were finally in the clear. (That this is more than a little stupid is on Blizzard for being morons and bad writers.) If the Legion isn’t coming, then there is no reason to stir things up with the insular and violent neighbours by telling them about Space Satan and his groupies. Second, even if the Draenei had felt that the Legion would return, telling the orcs about the Legion wouldn’t have any effect on whether the Draenei and orcs could stand against the Legion, and might have led members of the orcs to try and reach out to the Legion for a reward.
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Incorrectly*
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