Why Stormheim didn't work as an excuse to start the war

[Mernna-moon-guard]

I often see posters about the forum lamenting that Stormheim wasn’t the reason for the war starting as opposed to Sylvanas being herself. I myself find this to be a very flawed argument that requires copious amounts of plot induced stupidity to be hefted upon Anduin, Genn, and the horde as a whole (some of which we actually see when Saurfang uses it as justification but that’ll be for later).

If Stormheim had been in some way used as a rallying cry for the horde to take up arms against the alliance this would likely lead to Anduin reprimanding Genn at some point for it, or at the very least inquiring about it. The problem here? Genn’s alibi is ROCK solid. All he has to do is say that he intervened because he recieved a letter from the alliance champion in Azsuna claiming that Sylvanas was sabotaging their relationship with Odyn and thus endangering the world by putting the Aegis of aggramar at further risk. Then as proof he’ll cite that she really was trying to enslave one of Odyn’s val’kyr and whether Odyn cares about them or not, isn’t much of a concern at this point as the horde and alliance should be tip-toeing around any faction that has one of these artifacts they need to open the tomb while they court them to gain access to it.

Then Anduin and/or Genn can send a letter to various horde leaders about Sylvanas’ actions in Stormheim and at best she’ll lose some support. At worst they might rebel against her for putting them all in danger. The only piece of genn’s alibi here that might be weak is that he didn’t necessarily read the letter but he could easily claimed it was lost when the skyfire crashed. And even if it does happen to be found it would only further vindicate him. It’d require copious amounts of plot induced stupidy for Genn to somehow not be able to justify his actions while Sylvanas could justify hers. If anything Genn would come out looking like a hero while Sylvanas more of a villain.

Speaking of, this would also make the entirety of the horde look like idiots too as it’d require them to either be totally fine with her enslaving one race/person for the sake of gaining immortality (everyone dies, just because the forsaken go mindless first isn’t an excuse), or kept in the dark about the whole affair which is why it makes Saurfang look bad. Yeah, they tried to kill your warchief… because she was up to no good ya dingus. At least in our current scenario we can say Saurfang not knowing about her activities is somewhat reasonable as the alliance at the time had little reason to inform the horde as a whole of her actions there (any moves made in this regard could have been more easily seen as propaganda and pushed them closer to war).

Lastly, Sylvanas burning Teldrassil not only wasn’t Plot induced stupidity as its something totally in line with her character as she was totally fine with blighting the whole of gilneas (of whom its citizens only escaped due to a secret passage), Southshore, and has been entirely fine with the torture and killing of peoples since vanilla. But it also wasn’t plot induced stupidity as it wasn’t a move that would cause the horde to turn against her; as in this very patch Lor’themar notes that Sylvanas has the hearts of the people of the horde. Meanwhile the schism he mentioned half a patch ago was apparently only in reference to a couple racial leaders and moreover said schism only got worse because she imprisoned Baine had that not occurred she’d have been one of their more beloved warchiefs apparently. That is to say, in terms of earning the horde’s loyalty Teldrassil was a brilliant move, because as it turns out they like that sort of thing.

EDIT made on 7/26 : Seems like this post didn’t really get across the point I was trying to get across. So here’s a TL;DR : If Sylvanas told the horde they’d be declaring war against the alliance because of Stormheim and this reached the alliance be it before or after Teldrassil. The alliance and Genn could easily justify his actions thanks to the end result and the ambiguity regarding the information the alliance would have had at the start of this campaign.

That is to say, the alliance could easily lie and say Genn knew about the Helya deal from the start and Sylvanas would have no way to refute this. Moreover, the alliance could easily bring out Eyir to speak on their behalf.

What i’m trying to say is, the only way Stormheim works as a reason for the start of the war: Is if the Horde is not given the full story and if the alliance doesn’t really respond to Sylvanas reason to declaring war.

[Petethedk-echo-isles]

I’d argue with you, but Blizzard has explicitly made the Horde evil scum in BFA they want all players to hate. They have even retconned in all kinds of absurd things like Sylvanas planning the Wrathgate.

I wonder why they are losing subs? So odd.

[Shieyra-thrall]

This is a lot of “what if” and “if that happened then”.

Stormheim does work as a reason to go to war because the Alliance and Horde (despite strained relations because of the broken shore) were not at war. Genn decided to try to assassinate Sylvanas over a personal grudge during a legion invasion which could have doomed everyone since the Horde would have been in disarray after. It’s both a stupid and war inciting move

Making friends with Odin doesn’t matter. He was ready to hand over the Aegis to skovald even though he was Legion. Odyn values strength above all.

I don’t understand why everyone scrambles to sweep everything the Alliance does under the rug just because Sylvanas is involved. Yes, Sylvie is mean and cruel, that doesn’t mean it’s impossible for her to be in the right for once. If anything her restraint in not going to war despite her attempted assassination speaks well of her.

[Portergauge-moon-guard (Portergauge)]

So, is this about Stormheim, or about how Blizzard is actually writing Sylvanas brilliantly all along? Your post kind of forgets about the title for half of it.

[Imerus-moon-guard (Imerus)]

The problem here? Genn’s alibi is ROCK solid. All he has to do is say that he intervened because he recieved a letter from the alliance champion in Azsuna claiming that Sylvanas was sabotaging their relationship with Odyn and thus endangering the world by putting the Aegis of aggramar at further risk.

But that didn’t happen. And even if it did, that doesn’t make it a problem for the Horde to have them claim foul on the Alliance.

Then as proof he’ll cite that she really was trying to enslave one of Odyn’s val’kyr and whether Odyn cares about them or not, isn’t much of a concern at this point as the horde and alliance should be tip-toeing around any faction that has one of these artifacts they need to open the tomb while they court them to gain access to it.

But he didn’t know any of that when he actually attacked her.

Then Anduin and/or Genn can send a letter to various horde leaders about Sylvanas’ actions in Stormheim and at best she’ll lose some support. At worst they might rebel against her for putting them all in danger.

At best (or I’d probably say at most) they don’t care.

Speaking of, this would also make the entirety of the horde look like idiots too as it’d require them to either be totally fine with her enslaving one race/person for the sake of gaining immortality

I don’t see how that makes them look like idiots. It still equates to a clear net positive for the Horde.

But it also wasn’t plot induced stupidity as it wasn’t a move that would cause the horde to turn against her; as in this very patch Lor’themar notes that Sylvanas has the hearts of the people of the horde.

Except that very aspect is part of the stupidity. After Garrosh, the Horde wasn’t suppose to put up with genocidal war mongers/people who kill the Horde’s own people (the Desolate Council then others during the Battle for Undercity).

[Vanderel-alexstrasza (Vanderel)]

Back in Legion, I would often see posters in the forum make this argument, where it was refuted 100%, like a million times. In ALLIANCE questing, it says THEY DO NOT KNOW WHAT SYLVANAS IS DOING. They have no reason to attack the fleet. There is no rock solid “alabi”.

[Banisha-wyrmrest-accord (Banisha)]

The quest is not canon because Horde players can do it too.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

@Mernna-moon-guard

Anduin reprimanding Genn at some point for it, or at the very least inquiring about it.

Genn actually did get reprimanded, but it was pretty much just a slap on the wrist:

@Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord

In Before the Storm, Anduin remembers (or the narrative mentions, I forget) that he ‘forcefully rebuked’ Genn and Rogers for going against his command.

@Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord

Sky Admiral Catherine Rogers was also present. Anduin had similar
sentiments toward her as he did toward Spymaster Shaw. Anduin
respected both individuals, but his relationship with them wasn’t
comfortable. Rogers was too thirsty for Horde blood for his liking. He
had forcefully rebuked both her and Greymane for taking a recent
assignment much further than he had ordered. But the Alliance had
needed Rogers’s hawkishness in the war, and Mathias protected the
innocent in his own way.

[Hakuro-bleeding-hollow (Hakuro)]

Genn’s alibi is ROCK solid. All he has to do is say that he intervened because he recieved a letter from the alliance champion in Azsuna claiming that Sylvanas was sabotaging their relationship with Odyn

That’s not the reasoning, though. From the quest text, Alliance players go to stormheim and thwart Sylvanas based off of spy intelligence. Not the letter the champion receives from aszuna.

So yes, stormheim is a reason why the war started.

[Mernna-moon-guard]

So, is this about Stormheim, or about how Blizzard is actually writing Sylvanas brilliantly all along? Your post kind of forgets about the title for half of it.

A bit of both, they’re kind of necessarily intertwined. Also I uh, probably should have mentioned from the initial post that this was meant to be in reference to how it would be taken in universe based on the information everyone has. So for example the fact that Genn tells the champion he didn’t read the letter wouldn’t come up as well… who would know that in the actual story since the champion isn’t there? We the players know he didn’t know thanks to our all-seeing eye as viewers of the story. But who on the horde would know that? Would the random 7th legion troopers know that? The only other one that might know would maybe be admiral rogers? And since it involves killing horde we know she’ll back Genn.

And the other point is that, even if Genn didn’t know about what Sylvanas was doing at the time he could claim later on that he had hints as to what she was doing, enough that it would prompt him to stop her.

I guess what i’m trying to say is. As far as being in-universe goes, Genn has pretty much everything going for him whereas Sylvanas has most if not all of it against her.

That’s not the reasoning, though. From the quest text, Alliance players go to stormheim and thwart Sylvanas based off of spy intelligence. Not the letter the champion receives from aszuna.

So yes, stormheim is a reason why the war started.

Then Genn can just claim he has this spy intelligence… he’s of higher rank than the player he’d have access to this information. And even if he didn’t… well, the results of his foray into Stormheim and freeing Eyir is still a massive advantage in his favor that grants him a lot of credibility especially alongside the letter.

Also yes, Stormheim is a reason as to why it starts as Sylvanas uses it to clear Saurfang. But if Saurfang actually had any clue as to what Sylvanas was doing in Stormheim would that still have been the case? Or might he feel the alliance was justified in attacking and instead have ire to direct towards Sylvanas for endangering the horde by potentially sabotaging relationships with Odyn?

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

I myself find this to be a very flawed argument that requires copious amounts of plot induced stupidity to be hefted upon Anduin, Genn, and the horde as a whole (some of which we actually see when Saurfang uses it as justification but that’ll be for later).

I don’t actually agree with most of your original post. It’s too dependent on a whole lot of what ifs and things that are not actually canon.

But in general, I will agree with this one quoted part in sentiment, because Sylvanas never should have been made Warchief ever at all. She had a record of breaking Horde laws, and had a record of being dishonorable. What’s more, Blizzard went out of its way to say that the Broken Shore situation was never clarified at all until after Legion in Before the Storm (and even that I’m just waiting on being retconned any way so that she had intentionally planned to leave Varian for dead all along). At least now we’re finding out Vol’jin was possessed by something that wanted her appointed for its own purposes instead.

[Mernna-moon-guard]

Hmm, definetely seeing a similar sentiment from a number of people in here that my initial post is based upon too many what ifs? Can i get those pointed out to me per chance?

[Zerde-sargeras (Zerde)]

That’s not the reasoning, though. From the quest text, Alliance players go to stormheim and thwart Sylvanas based off of spy intelligence. Not the letter the champion receives from aszuna.

So yes, stormheim is a reason why the war started.

The Alliance/Horde was not at peace at that point. Hell, after the Broken Shore fiasco the Alliance had enough reason to fight the Horde again. Besides, learning that Sylvanas was actually working with Helya is probably justification enough for war.

On an added note, do the Horde actually know that Sylvanas was planning on making a deal with her? Hell, I can easily see Sylvanas not wanting that piece of information spreading, hence why she would down play the entire event.

[Mernna-moon-guard]

This is where i’m at atm. I can’t imagine the horde itself actually being happy with Sylvanas doing what she did in Stormheim.

[Artanu-thrall (Artanu)]

Why would it matter to any horde what Genn’s motives were? It doesnt matter to us if he acted in the interests of the alliance. He attempted to assassinate our Warchief. Thats a perfectly justified reason to go to war.

[Mernna-moon-guard]

Except his reasons for doing so potentially saved the horde as well. Sylvanas, by harming one of Odyn’s higher ranking members was jepordizing the mission to save the planet. Genn stopping Sylvanas may be what is allowed us to defeat the legion by way of not angering Odyn.

[Cursewords-tichondrius (Cursewords)]

If Stormheim had been in some way used as a rallying cry for the horde to take up arms against the alliance this would likely lead to Anduin reprimanding Genn at some point for it, or at the very least inquiring about it.

In Before the Storm, Anduin specifically rebukes Genn for Stormheim. It is described as a forceful rebuke - though there is ultimately not any real consequence other than a rebuke.

Genn’s alibi is ROCK solid. All he has to do is say that he intervened because he recieved a letter from the alliance champion in Azsuna claiming that Sylvanas was sabotaging their relationship with Odyn and thus endangering the world by putting the Aegis of aggramar at further risk. Then as proof he’ll cite that she really was trying to enslave one of Odyn’s val’kyr and whether Odyn cares about them or not, isn’t much of a concern at this point as the horde and alliance should be tip-toeing around any faction that has one of these artifacts they need to open the tomb while they court them to gain access to it.

Genn and Rogers do not know about the situation in Stormheim before they attack Sylvanas. They set off from Stormwind with orders from Anduin, and then they attack. Genn could not say he knew about Odyn if he was sent with 0 knowledge in the first place. Making it up afterward would make him an obvious liar.

That aside, Odyn would have given the Aegis to Skovald, if Skovald had won, so that diplomatic angle does not hold to the facts.

Also yes, Stormheim is a reason as to why it starts as Sylvanas uses it to clear Saurfang.

Actually, Sylvanas does not even use the word Stormheim when she convinces Saurfang. She mentions Genn pushing Anduin to war, and then Saurfang thinks about Stormheim on his own.

He did not need Sylvanas to twist the Alliance attack at Stormheim into evidence of the Alliance’s aggression. The event itself was enough.

[Alluringdawn-proudmoore (Alluringdawn)]

Stormheim wasn’t the excuse. The Broken Shore was. Reminder that the prevailing perspective in the Alliance was that they were betrayed by the Horde led by Sylvanas. Stormheim just escalated due to the assassination attempt of Sylvanas at the beginning the revealed machinations of her efforts there which ended up justifying Genn’s moves against her.

[Mernna-moon-guard]

Genn and Rogers do not know about the situation in Stormheim before they attack Sylvanas. They set off from Stormwind with orders from Anduin, and then they attack. Genn could not say he knew about Odyn if he was sent with 0 knowledge in the first place. Making it up afterward would make him an obvious liar.

That aside, Odyn would have given the Aeigis to Skovald, if Skovald had won, so that diplomatic angle does not hold to the facts.

Mernna:

That’s what we players know. In universe the only thing everyone knows is that Genn attacked Sylvanas but don’t know why or what he knew or what she was doing. If Sylvanas used this to make an open declaration upon the alliance afterwards he could have easily claimed to have had knowledge of all of her actions before the fact which was why he acted.

In reference to Odyn giving the aegis to skovald. No one knew Odyn would be so… bound to his own form of… honor? (I guess we’d call it?) Generally in diplomatic missions you want to be as nice as possible to your new potential ally to avoid offending them in ways you don’t necessarily understand.

In any other society on Azeroth attempting to enslave someone’s high ranking official or w/e would have been worth breaking any potential alliances.

Actually, Sylvanas does not even use the word Stormheim when she convinces Saurfang. She mentions Genn pushing Anduin to war, and then Saurfang thinks about Stormheim on his own.

He did not need Sylvanas to twist the Alliance attack at Stormheim into evidence of the Alliance’s aggression. The event itself was enough.

Right, and it only works because Saurfang does NOT have all the information. Or at least, if he does he never mentions any of it to us as viewers or players. I mean, would we really think him to be ok with Eyir being enslaved, possibly enraging Odyn and preventing us from getting the aegis?

[Droité-tanaris (Droité)]

TBH … I could totally see her having some involvement in the Wrathgate; she’s far too much of a control freak to not have been aware of such an operation (and it is also true that she intended to off herself after she killed Arthas; so presumably had the Blight succeeded in its intended purpose and off’d the Lich King … she would have had a pretty good way to avoid the consequences).

On the topic at hand … Genn’s choice to attack Sylvanas in Stormheim was BS. Granted, I do know that it was a Datheroc Shaw that gave Rogers and Genn the information about Sylvie (as he was trying to push the two factions into a conflict when they could least afford it), and I am actually pretty OK with Genn stopping Sylvie’s nonsense (as a LIVING race of the Horde) … but its still BS. On the other hand if Sylvie didn’t bother using it as a justification for escalation (outside of using it against Saurfang to convince him into the War) … its not an excuse to start the War.

I think her reasons for wanting this war SO BADLY are her own (and have little to do with the wellbeing of the Horde) she didn’t need an excuse. Hence the reason even now we have no real clue what her endgame is (only that killing of SW and raising them into undeath is a part of it).