One should also factor that Anduin gave Genn leeway in his orders, as from the quest “Making the Rounds”:
Sky Admiral Rogers says: Three days ago, the Forsaken fleet set sail from Durotar, heading straight for the Broken Isles. We think Sylvanas Windrunner herself may be among them.
Sky Admiral Rogers says: We are to track them from a safe distance. We may engage, but only if the situation demands.
Sky Admiral Rogers says: I strongly suspect the situation will demand it.
As compared to Sylvanas completely going against orders, as from the quest “The Hunt For Sylvanas”:
General Warhowl says: You sound very confident, your Majesty. I seriously hope you do not plan to use the Plague. Garrosh has explicitly forbidden it.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: You'd do well to watch your tone, General. Neither you nor Garrosh have anything to worry about. We've ceased all production of the Plague, as he ordered. We'd never deploy it without his permission.
General Warhowl says: I will deliver my report to our leader, then. By your leave, my lady.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Go with honor, General. Warhowl exits the cathedral.
High Executor Crenshaw says: My Lady! Should I order my men to stop development of the Plague? Or are we to continue as planned?
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: What kind of question is that? Of course we're deploying the Plague as planned! Let the Gilneans enjoy their small victory. Not even their bones will remain by tomorrow.
High Executor Crenshaw says: As you wish!
And, once again, this wasn’t even solely Garrosh’s law, as Thrall had the law in place as well, as we see when a Forsaken player talked to a Kor’kron Overseer and asked where the alchemy trainer was:
Kor'kron Overseer: I bet you rotters thought you were pretty clever at the Wrath Gate, didn't you? Playtime's over. We're here to make sure you don't try anything.
Kor'kron Overseer: Doctor Herbert Halsey is who you want. Just don't try anything funny. Any more of that plague nonsense and you'll find an axe in uncomfortable places.
I don’t think that matters. 1. Because I don’t think there’s any defending Genn going against the spirit of what he was told. I don’t think he’s ever offered that defense, so it isn’t relevant to me. 2. This is about character perception as much as meta-knowledge. And I don’t think the specifics of the orders are well known.
Sure, that’s good evidence as to her untrustworthy nature. Same comment, though. I wonder how well known it was outside the Horde.
I think it does matter, specifically because punishing Genn has never come up from an Alliance perspective ever, as far as I can tell, which may imply that Anduin, an everyone else in the Alliance, doesn’t even think Genn did anything wrong, which could be a factor of the leeway in those orders.
In Before the Storm, Anduin remembers (or the narrative mentions, I forget) that he ‘forcefully rebuked’ Genn and Rogers for going against his command.
Do you remember the line? I’m not saying you’re wrong, just that I don’t remember it.
The quest “The Hunt For Sylvanas” is from the Worgen starting zone spying on Sylvanas, so the Alliance specifically knows that Sylvanas was breaking Horde laws.
Here it is. Online copy, so I don’t have a page number. Very early on (first and second page) of Chapter four.
Sky Admiral Catherine Rogers was also present. Anduin had similar
sentiments toward her as he did toward Spymaster Shaw. Anduin
respected both individuals, but his relationship with them wasn’t
comfortable. Rogers was too thirsty for Horde blood for his liking. He
had forcefully rebuked both her and Greymane for taking a recent
assignment much further than he had ordered. But the Alliance had
needed Rogers’s hawkishness in the war, and Mathias protected the
innocent in his own way.
So Rogers and Genn were punished, to the extent of being rebuked.
Sylvanas has never even been rebuked for continuing the development and use of the Plague against orders, as far as I can tell. Instead, she was made Warchief.
Quite. Hence why I dislike people trying to present the whole ‘wiggle room’ when it is both clear in the quest he’s breaking the spirit, that Anduin thinks they did, and Genn offers no real defense in this vein. No characters seem to find the leeway players speculate at as relevant regarding their breaking.
There’s two points to consider. The first being, Saurfang specifically thinks something like ‘as far as I know, he hasn’t been punished’. Again, if we’re talking about justification from character perspectives, they seem generally unaware of such a rebuking. And secondly, rebuking is and is not a punishment. You could argue it fits such a definition. But in regards to A Good War, I assume what Saurfang meant he didn’t get a punishment with relevant consequences, something beyond just a talking to, to ensure things wouldn’t go astray again.
The Alliance and Horde kill a lot of third party leaders. The point I was making was that in joining the Alliance, their decisions became his decisions. And the Alliance decision was not to punish Sylvanas for Gilneas, and instead to make peace with her. After that, Genn did not have justification to attack Sylvanas for her invasion, particularly since he did so as a member of the Alliance, with the Alliance’s forces.
They really aren’t. Firstly, because Sylvanas not being punished was accepted by the Alliance, meaning that by the Alliance’s own standards they did not “fail to uphold honor”. Secondly, because Genn went unpunished without the Horde’s agreement to let him go unpunished. Unlike with the Alliance and Sylvanas, the Horde never signed any agreement foregoing his punishment, they had zero say.
Actually, if we are taking character perspective into account, going by A Good War, Saurfang does not even have a definitive notion that Genn did go against Anduin’s orders.
There were whispers that Greymane had ordered the attack without Anduin’s permission
I think either is as bad from a character view. If he thinks Genn went with Anduins command or without it, it evidences a willingness to fight in such a threatening situation. Genn attacked and, far as Saurfang knows, he wasn’t punished in any serious way.
The treaty - Which made no exceptions for Sylvanas - Was formulated after Varian made that statement. Meaning, what he said in the moment was only a platitude and held no actual weight towards the Alliance’s policy.
Again, the Alliance did not punish Sylvanas or seek to “contain” her. They let her actions go.
We have other context of the treaty, namely that nothing Varian said in that moment came true and it was formulated without any exceptions for Sylvanas. You can’t insist his words there were part of the treaty and then say that Sylvanas’ non-punishment was justification for attack, because it was clearly signed and adhered to without her ever facing repercussions of any sort.
I do not agree. We as players were on Draenor, and we had no real knowledge of what was happening on Azeroth during that time, so we do not know what Varian, Vol’jin, or Sylvanas were doing during that time - besides Vol’jin recalling the Kor’kron from Undercity. Additionally, a treaty has never even been mentioned in lore as far as I can tell, so I can’t even find anything to back up your notion that something was signed.
However, from the Legion Invasion pre-patch events to Legion, we did see Alliance forces stationed at Hillsbrad still, which actually suggests that the containment of Sylvanas had been underway until the Legion attacked.
Do you have any evidence that anything Varian said was instituted or that Sylvanas was punished?
Because just as you say, what little we have shows Sylvanas to have gained more freedom when the Kor’kron were rescinded from the Undercity.
Ashran, where it’s stated to still be in effect. And likely remained so until Legion, at the beginning of which the two factions - Sylvanas and Varian included - Fight side by side without issue.
I would very much not take those invasions as canon, given that they spontaneously had dead characters return to life. And even then, the Alliance being present in Hillsbrad is not itself indicative of any efforts to curtail Sylvanas in any way.
This was my original point. That the Horde was holding the Alliance to a standard (thinking Genn should be punished for going against Anduin’s orders) that they do not hold themselves to (as Sylvanas was never punished for going against Thrall’s and Garrosh’s orders).
You’re right, actually. There is a mention of a treaty in Ashran. A treaty the Horde is being accused of breaking.
Did those mongrels forget that we're supposed to have a treaty?
It looks that way. I think that they fear that if we do find the artifact, we'll end up using it against them.
If they keep attacking our soldiers the way they have been, they might drive us to it.
It is evidence of, after SoO, Alliance forces being still being stationed in territory Sylvanas had invaded.