Why Stormheim didn't work as an excuse to start the war

For example:

There is no canon stating that the Azsuna quest came before or after Stormheim. Nor any canon stating that Genn ever personally saw that letter. It could have been written as part of Genn’s motivation, but it wasn’t written so. Genn attacked Sylvanas because he wanted to. If Genn’s motivation had anything to do with stopping the Horde from getting the Aegis, we’ve never heard about it (even if it would fit us stopping other hostile groups from getting or keeping other Pillars of Creation). Genn did not know about Eyir before he attacked Sylvanas. Genn might not have even known about Eyir until right before he saved her from Sylvanas. Doing a good thing does not retroactively change Genn’s motivation to attack Sylvanas because he wanted to (even if it ended up being a good thing that he did).

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Unless i’m remembering incorrectly didn’t Genn mention the letter when we first board the Skyfire but then goes on to state he didn’t bother reading it?

Yes, we players know Genn attacked Sylvanas because he wanted to, I’m not going to hit the “stopping horde from getting the aegis bit” as I never said anything referring to that or akin to that (?) . We also know Genn didn’t know about Eyir before he attacked Sylvanas. But the thing here is: Do the people In-universe know Genn lacked this information? Do they know Sylvanas made a deal with Helya and wanted to enslave Eyir? If they don’t Genn could very easily turn all of this into a positive for himself and make himself look like the hero.

  1. Seems weird Genn would lie to Anduin like that, a person he so trusts and seems to respect.
  2. I don’t see why the Horde would believe him.
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You are deviating into hypotheticals, which shows how your original point just does not hold water.

You basically would require Sylvanas being more communicative of her reasonings - which is uncharacteristic. Then you require Genn openly lying, which makes him even more the villain. If he lied to Anduin about the attack, that would be a vile act on top of another vile act.

Basically you are injecting stuff that is not there.

Yes. Some people did know.

Sylvanas specifically tells her champions (Horde players) that there is some trial that she knows we are capable of completing to acquire the Aegis, while she works towards another treasure.

So the Horde Player is aware of their mission to complete the trial to secure the Aegis before they set sail.

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I don’t see Genn lying to anduin as so much of a problem really, but that is a fair point.

True, the horde doesn’t have to believe him. I can’t imagine he’d have any real trouble convincing Eyir to speak on his behalf considering he saved her. But thats really dipping into what if territory. And while it is, again true the horde doesn’t have to believe him. At that point they could be convinced of anything by their warchief as without any evidence in opposition other than Sylvanas word, it would thusly never matter what anyone had to say on anything other than Sylvanas.

Plus, this would make the horde look kind of dumb and cult-like if it played out that way.

Genn doesn’t have the ability to defend himself if Sylvanas isn’t more communicative. You’ve also got to keep in mind that this topic is about why Stormheim would or would not have been able to justify the war. If Sylvanas tried to use Stormheim to rally the horde to war its only reasonable to assume that the alliance would reply with information it has regarding Stormheim no? Whether that information is falsified or not isn’t really relevant so much as it is what they get away with saying. Which is pretty much why Saurfang is able to so easily use Stormheim as justification in the first place. If he had known that Sylvanas was trying to enslave Eyir which would have potentially damaged relationships with Odyn would he have seen Stormheim as an act of alliance aggression? and if he still did would it have been enough for him or other members of the horde to go to war?

She never tells the champion what she herself is actually doing there.

Your point was that no one was aware of a trial being necessary to secure the Aegis.

I am simply letting you know that yes, the Horde Player is told there is a trial before they set sail. So when you said:

That statement is incorrect. There are people who know that Odyn has preconditions that must be met - his trial.

The Horde Player knows they must complete the trial to acquire the Aegis. They are told this by Sylvanas herself. She is the one that sends us to acquire it.

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So you’re saying it wouldn’t be at all strange to assume that enslaving a high ranking member of someone’s court wouldn’t be grounds for disqualification to a particular trial? I’m pretty sure that’d be the default assumption and reaction in most cases except for like… this sole case?

Like, if the horde was trying to say, secure something from the Zandalari and we’re told they’d have to perform a trial to get the thing I’m pretty sure everyone would see enslaving Princess Talanji along the way as grounds for disqualification as well as a generally bad move and say not to do it.

Is Stormheim reason enough to declare war? Yes, to an extent. But is it a justifiable one based on what we know? No, it isn’t. If anything, if she is using it as an excuse it just sort of digs the whole of being manipulative and evil even deeper.

A lot of this is covered in the rogue campaign, which in my opinion was one of the best chains Blizzard has done. There are heavy SPOILERS for it in the rest of of my post, so keep that in mind.

The reignition of hostility with the Horde started at the Broken Shore, not Stormheim, when it was made to appear that the Horde had abandoned the Alliance to their fate at the hands of the demons. In fact, the entire thing was a setup, false intel given to the Horde and the Alliance both to lure the bulk of both their forces and the Argents into a trap. This was done by way of a false Mathias Shaw, as well as infiltrating demons such as those revealed by the demon hunters when they show up.

Now, the Broken Shore was the straw that broke the camel’s back, and was the entire impetus for Genn going after Sylvanas. Had that not happened, the attack wouldn’t have happened either. And both sides knew this, and know this, because both have access to the members of the Uncrowned who discovered it. Stormheim happened because Genn wanted revenge for what he perceived as a betrayal, a betrayal that was only able to be perceived because of the machinations of the Legion.

Moreover, in the patch immediately afterwards, when attacking Suramar, the blood elves and night elves and high elves are working side by side. Now, the Alliance forces are just that, part of an Alliance, and more or less can do what they want. But Silvermoon is beholden to the Warchief, and was dancing to Sylvanas’ tune in large part even before she took up the role. They would not be there without her approval, and this means she’d more or less let the Stormheim thing rest.

Of course, she does bring it up later on, as a way to prove her point that the Alliance might attack them later. But in reality her entire reasoning is speaking to a history that belongs to the Horde, not the Alliance. She knows that any clashes with the Alliance in Legion were the result of Legion meddling, ultimately, and so her using Stormheim as reason to start the war is inherently self-serving. The Horde at large doesn’t know what she was up to in Stormheim, of course they’re going to believe her.

From the in-story point of view? Yes, it can be used as justification in the eyes of the average Hordie, if not justification for the Burning (though they’re apparently ok with that). From a meta perspective taking into account all we know? It’s not, and Sylvanas also knows it’s not. Saurfang should have known it too, the moment the plans for the War of Thorns started, but he’s senile.

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Maybe it doesn’t. But does it matter at this point? If Genn did not do what he did Sylvanas would be even stronger now. Ultimately, stopping her from enslaving Eyir is a good thing. Genn thought Sylvanas was evil and was planning something malicious. Apparently he was right. That is all that matters as far as I’m concern.

Just because she lets it rest doesn’t mean she’s going to let it go. Yeah, they had to siege Suramar to save Azeroth from destruction. The false intelligence really doesn’t matter. Genn attacked the fleet where he wasn’t even authorized to do so. “Muzzle your dog, Your Majesty”

A sunken fleet and assassination attempt doesn’t just get forgotten about, regardless of whatever pretext the Alliance had. The fact the the Legion meddled is irrelevant, because the Legion always meddles, or someone is always meddling.

And let’s say Sylvanas was successful, and Eyir unerotically submitted to her. Odyn still has to give someone the Aegis, even if he is mad at Sylvanas, to stop himself from being destroyed by the Legion invasion.

He does not make mention of the letter, no:

    Sky Admiral Rogers says: Three days ago, the Forsaken fleet set sail from Durotar, heading straight for the Broken Isles. We think Sylvanas Windrunner herself may be among them.
    Sky Admiral Rogers says: We are to track them from a safe distance. We may engage, but only if the situation demands.
    Sky Admiral Rogers says: I strongly suspect the situation will demand it.
    Genn Greymane says: It had better.
    Genn Greymane says: I am not in the habit of tracking prey unless I intend on killing it.

People in-universe didn’t even know what happened at the Broken Shore definitely. We know even less about what people in-universe know about the happenings of Stormheim. Saurfang never found out that Genn was reprimanded for it, for example.

This here is another whatif. Not something that actually happened.

I agree with you on this.

However, on this point, it obviously does matter, as Saurfang bought into Sylvanas’ plans for the War of the Thorns because of it. And unfortunately his doing good in stopping Sylvanas from enslaving Eyir does not change the fact that he still attacked Sylvanas without knowing what she was doing there.

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Yes, because why someone did something shows their mindset and usually dictates their future actions.

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It has been, though, at this point. The Horde player directly works with Genn in Nazjatar now.

Though this also if anything is precisely part of why Sylvanas should have never been allowed to be Warchief, and if anything, this mindset would justify Genn having attacked Sylvanas in Stormheim in the first place.

Genn did it because he thought Sylvanas was evil, he turned out correct. Good enough for me. If he was wrong that is certain a different discussion.

True enough.

I typically prefer a better rationale for trying to kill people than ‘I think they are evil’.

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It is not just a thought, it is a fact now. Even disregarding that Sylvanas killed Genn son, we only had a ceasefire to deal with the Legion threat and considering that did not even end amicable I’d say all bets were off.

Again, I’m contesting his thought process at the time. Post hoc results don’t justify something to me. I can give you a hypothetical if you like.

The whole thread is based on a what if scenario. That being “what if Sylvanas used Stormheim as the primary justification of the war?”

Didn’t Saurfang note that genn had been punished for stormheim in Before the storm? that said, you’re probably right about most people not knowing what happened at the broken shore definitively.

Also, ty for clearing up the matter of genn knowing or not knowing about the letter!

Yep an assasantion attempt is grounds for genocide on a people completly diffrent from thise that attacked you in retaliation for attempting grnicide on them.

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Wrathgate was always hinted to be Sylvanas, or at least they left the possibility open. She hinted at involvement even in the Wrath prepatch. The retcon is that they just forgot how young Saurfang died, since he actually got killed by the Lich King and not the blight.

When you do Battle for Undercity Horde side I’m pretty sure you barely fight any Forsaken. Putress is only fought Alliance side so Horde never even question him. Iirc most of the mobs are even demons on the Horde side and not Apothecary troops. It was always left open as to whether Sylvanas was involved or not.

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