Why do premades win? Once a BG starts, the game doesn’t know who joined as a group. They get no extra help or extra buffs, no better start location…nothing. If a group joins together and then plays badly, they will lose. Premading doesn’t help them.
“TEAMS” win a BG. When one side works as a team and the other side doesn’t. It’s the same in any team sport. WoW has many activities for solo players, but BGs aren’t one of them. BGs are team competitions, and coordinated teams usually win against uncoordinated groups of players.
EDIT – several nice PVP players explained it to me. Most premades are also organized groups – before they enter the queue (as a group) they make sure they have the right classes. Then during the BG they are together on discord, so they can co-ordinate easily. Naturally, those groups do better – not because they are “premade”, but for all the other reasons.
While you’re not wrong, you’re also not really right. Yes, some premades can lose, usually the ones that just have a bunch of random people queuing with non optimal classes and probably no requirement for coms. Those teams are basically just pugs that are on the same server. There’s a big difference between them and the actual pvp premades that have all the right classes and are using discord.
Thanks for explaining. These “pvp premades” (the subject of so many forum posts) are groups with planning in them (balanced groups before they enter BGs) and co-ordination using discord (during BGs). That’s a big advantage against groups that the game throws together randomly.
Do you not understand how solo queues work? You can actually end up without a single class that has a heal as opposed to having 3-4 fully geared paladins/healers. Right then and there any chance to win is gone even before discussing coms/gears/other specs
yeah alliance premades lose forsure. Ive never seen horde give up before the game starts when playing with premades in arathi basin. Not sure about helmet premades though. If horde has 6 people from the same server, alliance gives up before the gates open in the pugs im in.
Many premade groups zone in to the battleground with ony/rend/dm/zg buffs already applied to their entire team, and also require players to use consumables, as a prerequisite to being invited to participate, to better skew the match in their favor.
They hand select players for their gear and class. They choose a group compoisition that is more likely to result in victory because it has an appropriate ratio of healers to damage dealers, and because the players’ gear offers them an inherent statistical advantage – even prior to the use of consumables.
Hiawanda, this is an irrelevant question, because the premises of the match are already unfair, given that one team was hand selected and the other was randomly generated.
You literally just spelled out the problem with matchmaking PUG groups against PREMADE groups. Because one of these types of teams is inherently more coordinated, and the other one is less so by nature.
If coordinated groups usually win against uncoordinated ones, then why is the game matchmaking uncoordinated teams to play against coordinated ones?
Interesting – then why do the battlemasters offer an option to queue without a full team?
A 10-15 premade team with known good players, composition, and voice chat, have every advantage over a random matched pug that only have text to communicate. You’re trying to say that they don’t, which is foolish. Can they still lose? Sure, in theory. But they won’t. Not unless they’re really bad.
This is true. Although I don’t premade I do notice that premades are more professional about their evaluation of a game. If they find they can’t win (They usually come to this conclusion very quickly) they’ll switch to farm hks mode and let the opposing team win.
Pugs on the other hand will either keep trying and delay the inevitable or they’ll start turning on each other… In a lot of ways there’s more toxicity amongst pugs vs what you’ll find in premades.
No I agree with that…once you added “with known good players, composition, and voice chat for 10-15 of them”. I never said that a group like that would lose.
In fact I said that organized communicating groups like that win, not lose.
Or, if the other team is a full premade group which is simply better.
That doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re bad, just that they got outwitted or outplayed. It would be highly uncommon for a randomly generated group to match that description – which means, any non-premade group that team faces has been matchmade into a basically unwinnable game.
Players on these teams infrequently play for objectives, they just try to get some honor before the game ends so their time in queue wasn’t completely wasted; some players basically sit afk and wait for the game to end.
Which implies that: not only is the other team full of highly skilled players with top of the line gear and PvP gimmick items and engineering trinkets who are communicating in voice chat, you’re also playing against them with half a team at best, because the other half gave up before the game even started.
Given that PUG v PRE games exist, PRE v PRE games usually get tossed after the opening engagement to avoid committing to much time to them, because that would ultimately hurt Hph for both sides.
If the queues were separate, any premade team would understand that every game they endeavor to play as a full team is going to be PRE v PRE, and so getting to the next game by losing quickly on purpose, (assuming the next game will be laughably easy in reference to the game they’re in), will no longer be an optional mentality to play that match with – unless they simply intend to lose every game, denying themselves access to bonus honor by not trying to play objectives.
Separate queues means PUG teams won’t give up prior to the start of games because they are less likely to encounter the unfair set of circumstances that causes them to do so.
PRE v PRE games, as well as PUG v PUG ones, will feel more authentic, because teams on both sides in both queues will be playing objectives and trying to win.
The benefit you receive from constructing your own team is being able to control who your teammates are – effectively ruling out the possibility that you’re going to be paired with people who are unskilled and/or undergeared, and also allows you to control the class composition, and to employ more complex strategies.
I suggest that queuing with 4 or more members should place your group, effectively, into a different queue – and that there ought to be a hard-cap of 3 players from any single server in any given match which results from queues of 3 players or less.
This results in more intimate base player interactions between the players who choose to queue together into the “solo queue” field of play, while also doesn’t allow them to completely control the match, due to the sense in which the vast majority of their team has been generated by the matchmaking system.
Simultaneously, this still allows players to queue with larger teams, given that they are guaranteed to have at least 4 or more group-queued players to oppose them; which effectively ensures that the enemy team will also have a core of coordinated players as well.
Meanwhile, queuing with a team of 8 or more players had ought to place you into a 3rd queue type which will only fill a spot with a solo queue player if someone fails to accept the Battleground invitation, somebody leaves mid-match, or if the team didn’t queue with enough players to fulfill the player cap for the battleground.
For instance, if you queue with 12 players for Arathi Basin, the queue system would fill in the remaining 3 spots, and the enemy team would be guaranteed to also comprise of 8 or more players from a premade team.
The queue system, now, is creating 3 different variants of AB/WSG matches:
Pure Solo queue
Single players and parties of 3 or less
3 players from a single server maximum
Teams of 4+ players
1 team of 4-7 players from a single server per side
Single players, and groups of 3 or less*
Premades (8+)
1 Team of 8 or more per side
Single players, and groups of 3 or less*
*With the exception of the mixed or premade team around which the 2nd and 3rd variants of matches are constructed, the 3 player per single server maximum applies to every situation where the matchmaking system intends to select a player from the pool of “Solo queue” players.
And the result may honestly end up being faster queues for players queuing in parties – if groups of players are what the system is generating most matches around.
