I dont think ive ever seen frost in such a bad state.
I would definitely like to know why blizz is letting one of the pride and joy classes of its game get to this level of suck.
16 Likes
They didn’t “let it get to this level” bad. They implemented player feedback since Legion that took Frost to it’s current situation. Player feedback drove Frost here, and while it’s on Blizzard for implementing said feedback, the players aren’t 100% vindicated from getting what they asked for.
5 Likes
The issue is almost entirely derived from the design of obliteration and frostreaper together. Other abilities cannot feel good to press because obliterate does too much damage in pillar windows with having frost damage. It needs to go or be redesigned.
Frost also needs a massive look at its AOE toolkit, frostscythe is completely useless and would need a near 100% damage increase to be pickable, Howling Blast shouldn’t be aoe capped at 1 target, and tying your cleave to DND for a fast paced pillar window based subspec is just asking for players to have bad experiences in m+ where movement and repositioning is so common.
6 Likes
DK definitely feels like the weakest class in the game, with regards to PVP.
11 Likes
I just returned with my mates after a few years hiatus.
Played as a DK for years since WOTLK Loved the lore and everything about the DK.
was planning on tanking for our group into mythics once we get there with dps on the side and pvp.
This is now under serious contemplation considering my Pally just hit 70 and starting to gear and run dungeons / pvp.
The DK is in a terrible place right now compared to where it was when I left… I have never seen it this bad before… its a shell of its former self.
Needles to say im starting to think more efforts will be placed into the pally instead.
3 Likes
Yep i blame the boomer crying for 2 handed frost. Now frost scythe is a dead talent.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA as if the devs read FDK player feedback
Dishonest, Lets stop playing games and pretend that anything except the developers own lack of knowledge or personal experience lead the spec here
Its as simple as this, its very clear none of the devs play their game, And or, Play Frost dk it makes perfect sense that none of them understand the spec or what it needs
Additionally lets not sit here and pretend like the majority of the Frost talent tree, and the DK talent tree arent full of gimmicky or useless talents where other specs have access to absolutely absurd talents
18 Likes
I’m generally optimistic when it comes to class design, but it is looking rather bleak when most of the issues surrounding the specializations are relatively easy to fix.
If you are talking about its poor performance in raid it is exactly what people said would happen.
History loves to repeat itself.
We saw the exact same thing going from nighthold into tomb of sargeras in legion.
The fights are not designed around near 100% uptime for breath to shine. Also, unholy is tuned well and excels at damage on the move so all the top players will just play that.
This is funny coming from a guy that so heavily pushed for KM 2 stacks and they implemented it. So they listened. Just like Frostreaper was a player suggestion in SL beta and they implemented it. People wanting cleaving strikes to hit more enemies with Obliterate. They wanted 5 total but Blizzard made it 3, so they listened to that as well. 2h implementation they listened to while also bringing in MotFW more playerbase suggestions.
Everything Blizzard has done in the past 2 expansions at least were suggestions from the playerbase. Bring back icy citadel and whelps, make it so you can pick up icecap and obliteration, chill streak for pve, GA giving RI, more sources for RI because 2h needs the 2nd runeforge even though it has one. They have been listening to players and implementing what they want.
Frosts state is because of people like you, thanks for the garbage heap you helped create.
1 Like
Blaming all of this on player feedback is in my opinion disingenuous. Every player has his own opinions, and ideas like Frostreaper or Cleaving Strikes are not inherently bad.
If we had a way to reduce the CD on Death and Decay to make it always available, or instead baked the cleave into Remorseless Winter, it wouldn’t be THAT bad. Almost all of our damage profile would still be tied to Obliterate, but it could work.
But let’s be honest here. The problem is not that DK players give bad feedback. It’s because they dont try to make these ideas work with the rest of the spec as a whole.
Also, they don’t HAVE to keep all that stuff. No one is stopping them from reworking the spec a a whole. Sure, there are a few key points that they kinda need to keep, like Obliterate hitting hard, or people would get mad, but besides that, they are kinda free to rework it anytime.
6 Likes
Perhaps they could switch Frost Strike and Obliterate and make Obliterate the RP spender while FS would be the builder. They could make Obliterate do both physical and Frost damage, and simply have KM make it a guaranteed crit. It could cost a lot of RP, but also do ton of damage.
That way Frostscythe could replace Obliterate fully when talented and be used for cleave/AoE.
1 Like
There are many ways they could fix the spec.
They could remove the secondary damage reduction on Howling Blast, make Frostscythe worth using again (but perhaps with a small 6 sec cd cd to avoid it being spammed again).
Death and Decay could have a 15 sec cd, last 15 sec, do frost damage, and increase magic damage taken by the targets by 5% (group utility). Obliterate could also cleave on 4 targets, only at 33% effectiveness, but doubled if used after using a Frostscythe.
Breath of Sindragosa could consume up to 99 RP, and last 1 sec per 3 RP consumed.
Those are just a few ideas. I’m sure that the devs could come up with many others ideas to rework the spec a bit.
1 Like
Everything i listed was player suggested and supported by other players so its not disingenuous to say its the players fault for suggesting these things. Blizzard gave what the players asked for. If you ask for a bag full of rocks, and someone gives you a bag full of rocks and you start complaining about the bag of rocks… Well you asked for it.
1 Like
I’m fairly certain that if you take ALL the suggested changes ever submitted on these forums, over the last decade, you will end up with thousand if not millions proposed changes.
The fact that the devs picked a few of those, and implemented them badly without really trying to make them fit with the rest of our toolkit, does not mean that all player input is bad.
If you want to build a wall, and ask for rocks, and what you get are some rough and uneven rocks, not properly cut to fit together, and no mortar or tools to fix it, then obviously you will have a bad time.
Also, none of the aforementioned changes are really horrible. Obliterate cleaving with Cleaving Strikes at 100% damage on 3 targets is probably too strong, and puts all our damage in a single ability, but that does not mean that the dev’s hands are tied either. They could have refined the damage on secondary targets a bit more.
Bringing back MotFW was not a horrible suggestion, but the implementation was bad. No way to target specifically 1h weapons, and the wasted talent point were really annoying design choices that could have been avoided.
Badly implementing suggestions does not mean that the ideas were horrible to begin with. They just needed to fine-tune things a bit.
Now however, the spec is mess of badly implemented changes stacked on top of each other. There is a lot to fix.
4 Likes
Many issues:
-Breath of Sindragosa:
Needs to be a static 15 +/- second cast. This saves it from being punished in raids like Aberrus and makes it so either 2h/dw weapons can be use.
Edit:
Also makes Obliteration+BoS build possible.
-Obliterate:
Too much of our throughput revolves around Obliterates and Obliteration.
I love when Obliterate hits hard. That is what we asked for. It was hitting like a wet noodle not too long ago. But, they went full monkey with it.
It should play like Mortal Strike. Yes, it can hit hard AF, but other abilities do meaningful damage as well. Obliterate does like 50% of our damage ROFL. MS is around 25%.
-Frost Strike:
This needs to hit harder. Flat Large Buff.
-Frostscythe:
Make it interact with Shattering Blade. Frost Strike detonates razor ice on all enemies with 5 stacks for X damage after being hit by Frostscythe.
-Cold Heart:
Chains of Ice portion needs to be removed. Should be a stand alone talent. This would be good for fights where there are a log of run out mechanics.
-Inexorable Assault:
Make it so Obliterate consumes all 5 stacks at once then one stack every 8 seconds. This helps with on demand damage and recovering from walk out mechanics.
I think the new 4 set is attempting to move some power out of Obliterates but it will not be enough.
3 Likes
These you? I can go through the forums and dig up the posts from other users that had similar feedback too if you’d like.
That’d be you. I don’t see why you’re complaining at all since you quite literally said “Frost is saved” and “the fight is over [for getting more changes]” after the 10.0.7 changes.
Warriors, Evokers, Ret, Unholy, Spriest x2, and now all of Mage. So yes, it’s pretty clear that Blizzard is heavily listening to player feedback this expansion, even if you don’t agree with the changes (that you yourself even asked for & praised).
Not a single person said anything about this.
The tree has always been pretty bad, even if this current one is objectively better than the first iteration. No one here is arguing that. But it’s objectively false and 100% dishonest to say Blizzard isn’t reading & implementing player feedback this expansion.
Frost players (including yourself) gave feedback on the forums. Blizzard has been very clearly implementing player feedback, and the forum is one of those avenues to do so.
So again yes, the Frost DKs who have been giving feedback on the forums are partially to blame for the current state of Frost, as is Blizzard for taking that feedback and implementing it how they chose to.
And again, since this is apparently difficult for you to grasp, that does not absolve Blizzard for the current state of Frost DK.
5 Likes
DK was in a terrible place for years now
6 Likes
if you checked his other post he’s complaining that the relocation of damage was not done after the crit nerf so obli as the main source of damage is now useless
2 Likes
They took the suggestion and implemented it. They didnt implement it badly, the suggestion was just bad. It means that thing didnt fit in the first place.
No one is saying this. We are saying that the people that are complaining are the people that backed these changes while also pushing for certain changes that were also implemented.
This isnt what happened though. At all. They got EXACTLY what they asked for. Its like asking for jagged rocks, getting jagged rocks and then complaining that it made the wall crappy.
Frostreaper was a suggestion, a backed suggestion, from the playerbase and the suggestion was “have KM make Obliterate frost damage so it scales with mastery”. What did Blizzard do? Exactly what was asked by the community.
Yes, most of them actually are. Chill Streak was designed for PvP, cleaving strikes was put in Frost because “unholy and blood has it” and its just a bad addition when we already had a cleave which is now dead in the water due to the Frostreaper + Cleaving Strikes combo. People still want cleaving strikes to do full damage to 5 targets because the cleave still isnt good enough.
Yes it was. They brought it back as suggested by the playerbase and if the implementation was bad then the suggestion was bad.
Thats not MotFW fault, thats the implementation of 2h fault and there is no way to separate the 2 with the current loot system. Frosts personal loot system is 2h and 1h weapons and to fix this the personal loot system would need to be changed in some way to actually fix this. It wasnt even exclusive to Frost but also to Fury.
Again thats not the issue, its the increased Obliterate damage thats the issue that limits the build diversity of the weapon making it good for only 1 thing and this was asked for by these very forums.
Yes, the ideas are horrible when the idea is put in the game as is and it makes the class worse.
Why do you keep saying the ideas were implemented badly when they were implemented as they were suggested? Frostreaper was implemented how it was suggested, cleaving strikes was implemented as suggested, chill streak was implemented as suggested, 2h was implemented as suggested, MotFW was implemented as suggested, Icecap and Obliteration being able to be picked up together was implemented as suggested and tuned for the new combo but it was still implemented as suggested by the playerbase.
So if there is a lot to fix you can blame the playerbase. Basically roll the spec back to Legion and start over.