Lets talk about killing machine for a second, The fact that this passive is unable to store 2 stacks needs to change going forward into next expansion or if resources permit, this expansion. Rotationally in pvp and in pve im sure we can all agree that seeing yourself get a killing machine proc while youre global locked using froststrike or howling blast to fish for the proc feels awful, And not only does it feel awful but you lose a lot of damage when this occurs too. And lastly theres nothing you can do about it to stop it, your only chance is to have it happen before you use a global and to react in time to notice this happening
Functionally this problem goes away entirely with Killing Machine being able to stack twice, and allows frost death knights to setup bigger burst windows by prestacking killing machines.
Id like to hear your thoughts and would like to say clearly that this post isnt about buffing or nerfing death knight, its about making the class functionally work better. Our classes tuning is always subject to change but lets focus on talking about actual design changes our class needs going forward
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I think that’s a good idea.
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Whats the problem exactly? Are you talking about within PoF windows with Obliteration where you use a Frost Strike or Howling Blast and you get one from auto attack crits negating the Frost Strike / Howling Blast use and you want it to stack so you can double KM Obliterate?
Are you just sitting there waiting on KM procs because thats what it sounds like.
get obliterate off of the pillar of frost burst window and buff it a lot and make obliteration and bos more competitive with each other.
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How are you the only person questioning me on what i meant when everyone else here seems to very clearly understand what im talking about
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All credit to kelliste, they have made this an art form.
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Do they know what you meant and the reason why? Or do they just agree with KM getting a second stack.
Looks like they just agree with the KM getting a second stack…
That right there is the issue. You dont fish for KM procs within that window, you force them to happen by using Frost Strike or Howling Blast. If your entire request is because of 1 talent within a 12 second window with getting a KM proc from an auto crit right before you use Frost Strike or Howling Blast… its not much of an issue.
Not to mention in pvp that rarely happens due to low crit levels even with the 2pc giving 8% crit. On average most pvp players with a 2pc will have 13% crit with a 2h weapon. Its weird how this hasnt been an issue all expansion and now that the 2pc and higher crit levels its “fix this thing I have an issue with even though it hasnt been an issue for 99.999% of the expansion”.
So… what did you mean? Why did you go through that useless post and not just explain what you meant. It was easy enough to just answer my damn question but like always you guys rather moan about it.
Some people just live to be a contrarian, even if they don’t have a point to make. At this point I think it’s just become a knee jerk instinct for this individual.
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People have been asking for KM to stack to 2 since like Cata because it was based on auto attacks and you could get another while you were in the process of spending the initial KM proc.
If this is just because of a 12 second window and having inflated crit from the 2pc, it stacking to 2 isnt needed. It wasnt a problem for all of the expansion until this set bonus came along.
No, he’s got a point. I didn’t really see the reasoning or understanding behind what he was asking for myself. And this:
Seems to be the only thing people are on the same page about. Not it’s reasoning as to how or why, just that it should exist.
There is no “fishing” for KM procs. If you’re worried about it proccing during a PoF window just before or right after using FS/HB to force one, then this has been an existing problem (not really a problem but more a #feelsbad), the entire expansion.
Outside of PoF, there is no fishing and the issue does not exist. Inside PoF, even if it stacked to two, you can still be global locked by not alternating Obliterate and Frost Strike. Having KM stack twice is just going to make you want to deplete/overcap on the proper corresponding resources.
Two Oblits back to back and you’re down runes and overcapping Runic Power, and now so you’re not just auto-attacking waiting for Runes to regenerate when you get unlucky and don’t proc a free rune, you’re spending Runic Power on Frost Strike which forcing a KM proc anyway.
Stacking KM procs, unless you can guarantee you’ll get a free Rune every FS/HB during PoF, will just mess with the balance of your PoF window and make it super clunky in trying to keep the stacks from overcapping without throwing off the other resources, or…you’ll never hit that second proc outside of PoF, so stacking it is pointless.
I think the OPs biggest issue is PoF and not KM itself.
I mean still, it’s a QoL change that’s still would be nice to have. And remember that Obliteration and ME would grant the Death Knight a rune for each Killing Machine they consume. Either using it two runes (unlucky), one rune (either one procced), or for free during PoF!
You’re correct on no such thing as “fishing” for KM procs, as it is entropic based on how much crit you have. The more trials you miss from a white crit, the more likely you will get a KM proc.
You could be like me and use Frost Strike (or HB) ahead of time when I am first swinging my weapon and then happen to get a yet another KM proc during my Obliterate Global.
PoF is just yet another cooldown like every other class need to worry about (Tyrant, Recklessness, Apoc, Icy Veins, Comb, VF, etc.). And its cooldown along with Gathering Storm, encourages us to spend more on Runes than Runic Power. Runic Power feels awful to spend.
Much like Unleashed Frenzy duration increase or making RC or RE not purely reliant on RNG. Having KM stackable may relief the pain of its black and white nature of this passive. And considering Rime exists, it’s much more nuanced than just using Obliterates back to back.
People have been asking for KM to stack to 2 since like Cata from what I remember and it was more legit then and Blizzard didnt do it.
You could be in the process of spending a KM proc and before the ability went off an auto could hit and proc another KM proc basically doing nothing. I havent heard KM stacks since basically legion when they changed how KM procs.
Notice how its kelliste and a druid trying to argue against the post
Both of you are monkeys if im being real. Its been a problem all expansion for obliteration to get a lot of damage thrown out the window solely because km doesnt double stack, ive been having it happen since legion
Saying “you dont fish for km within that window”, and then saying “you force them to happen” means the exact same thing, what do you presume fishing for procs means?
Kelliste stop talking about sht you dont know anything about bro its literally soul destroying hearing you talk. You,do,not,play,the,game.
Im sitting at 18% crit so i get 26% crit during remorseless and 18% from bonesmith, i get killing machine procs constantly in the middle of froststrikes and howling blasts. And in PvE this kind of thing happens every patch because pvers stack crit mast most of the time.
Frost loses a lot of damage all of the time for something as simple as an overlapped proc we cant control
Everything else you and the druid talked about is just totally irrelevant and im not wasting my time anymore responding to both of your stupidity
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just came here to say: your character name is awesome for a frost DK. Well done.
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Fishing is RNG based and an attempt to get one. Forcing them means it happens exactly when you mean it to.
And when it does stack, we go back to the issue that I said that you cannot properly manage resources after that. And then that’s what you’d complain about. This is a bread crumb issue/solution. To allow KM to stack twice, would lead to issues with how your PoF window operates and that would be clunky, so then you’d complain about that and ask for that to be changed. Then when that’s changed, you’ll complain about having steadier consistent damage, but no longer have a burst window and now you’re forced to play BoS.
You can and still will become global locked even with it stacking to two. You can also still lose out on KM procs while sitting on 2.
This hasn’t been an issue until people got their 4 piece and realized they could get more AoE out of Glacial Advance.
No it’s entirely relevant, it just destroys your OP so you don’t like it.
For someone with the name Chillpills, you need to take one.
Fishing and forcing are different. Have you never went fishing? Its not a guarantee. Just like email phishing. You sent out an absolute ton of emails in the hopes you get a sucker that believes it.
Within that window you are forcing KM procs to happen, its a guarantee that Frost Strike and Howling Blast will proc KM.
And if i dont play the game, etc does that say about you because you play it according to your blatantly BS terms, and have no clue what you are talking about. Fishing fir pros is doing something in the hopes it will happen. Its not a force.
“Loses a lot of damage” yet its been what… 2nd melee dps this raid tier?
This 2 stack isnt needed what so ever because you are limited by the resources you can spend anyways.
Having high crit within that window is useless unless you want Frost Strike or Howling Blast to crit which people say are weak in the first place. You are better off of having that crit outside of that’s window because again within that window YOU ARE FORCING KM TO PROC.
This isn’t entirely true. Not in my experience anyway. I get stung often by what chillpills is talking about where you press frost strike to get your KM up but a natural one happens the millisecond before pushing it and you feel like you just wasted a global. But sometimes I will get natural KMs with enough time before pressing FS to react and just go 2 oblits in a row and never is there an issue with resources. It also feels great getting 2 Km oblits in a row, but that’s more because FS feels terrible to press at the moment. But even if you did get that second stack at a moment you didn’t have runes, you can just hold onto it until you get some runes back up. ME and RE (and KF if you’re running it) pretty much guarantee refreshing runes quickly so you can get that second KM off.
I definitely think it would be a positive change. Wouldn’t be much of a difference for BoS, but would be massive for oblit users.
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Right. I understand what you’re saying and how it works/feels bad not having that second stack. But we’ve already seen multiple scenarios where we’re getting 2-3 Frost Strikes off and not getting those runes (as per Biceps and Kell’s argument in the other thread over logs concerning Oblit vs DW and tier pieces).
Getting those 2 Oblits back to back and not getting those runes refreshed still happens. I do agree that a second KM stack would feel a lot better. But the issue at hand is still being that you’re wanting to use FS between Oblits for the rune regeneration. Using 4 runes back to back on double Oblits will make the meters look good for a few seconds, but now you’re sitting on Runic Power, no Runes, and no guarantee that you’ll get those runes regenerated. So now what happens when you’ve got 2 GCDs to burn, get a KM proc naturally, and then get your second KM proc from FS. Do we just hold and not do anything and pray we don’t get a third one while we’re waiting for Runes to come back so we can burn a KM proc?
In theory, and probably 66% of the time, it’s going to feel great. And it’s not that I’m against the second stack option. It’s just with how they’ve got everything tuned and balanced and working now, throwing in a second stack of KM is just going to make PoF feel extremely clunky at times and it’ll create it’s own issue as well.
You’ll either still be globaled, capping on procs/runic power, or auto attacking waiting to be able to unload again (trust me, people complain about this all the time about Ferals lol you don’t want that).
I think it would require more reworking on the fundamental play of Frost than people are thinking. They’re looking at the superficial top layer. Getting a KM proc just as you’re proccing a KM yourself does feel bad. And adding in a second KM stack saves that and makes you feel good. But it still presents its own issues.
This is also with inflated crit from the 2pc as well as some soulbinds. You dont need all that crit within an Obliteration window.
The nature of KM procs and Obliteration its an inevitability that the scenario is going to happen.
I think there are more pressing issues than KM stacking. Like almost all of Frosts damage being locked behind procs or some kind of requirement to get the abilities full damage out. Just a lack of overall consistency.