What Reparation's should the Alliance get?

[Droité-tanaris (Droité)]

@Katiera-moon-guard

no nelf player or alliance player defends azshara’s crimes

Of course not, they don’t have to. Most NE players draw a clear distinct line between NightElves and Highborne, simply because the NightElves eventually turned on Azshara once she went too far off the deepend. But they lived in relative comfort within her Empire prior to that for thousands of years. Blizz deliberately leaves that opening for cherry picking with Alliance races. They do the exact same thing for the Draenei, even though their species the Eredar has shown an unbelievable tendency towards world ending crusades twice now.

As for the Horde in BfA. Honestly, I don’t mind the WoT itself. Saurfang’s plan was one that depended on the survival of the NE civilization and leadership to put pressure on Anduin; its was not a plan to eradicate the NEs. The Alliance had also been acting aggressively up to that point, with several acts that should have been considered “Acts of War”, but weren’t simply because Blizz ensured they were weakly invalidated or excused. Solely so the Horde could be the aggressor (the same thing that happened in the Garrosh War tbh).

Sylvanas was also absolutely right in her arguments to Saurfang that Tyrande and Genn were tryiing to pressure Anduin into pre-emptively attacking the Horde. The only thing she was really wrong on was Anduin buckling under that pressure. But considering she used Anduin’s response to Genn and Roger’s actions in Stormheim as evidence that he would (or worse, that he was complicit in or supportive of that attack) … it is very understandable why Saurfang believed that Anduin would concede to his elder’s wishes and attack the Horde first.

Also, as much as NE fans LOVE to ring the “Genocide” Card. Technically, unless you’re conflating Saurfang’s WoT and Sylvie’s decision to burn the tree, the Horde was made a “Tool” for Genocide. There was never the intent for anyone outside of Sylvanas and her most diehard loyalists to eradicate the NEs. Its still horrific, but this is not quite the same situation as the deliberate attempted genocide as say the NEs partook in under Cenarius against the Orcs in WC3; where they fully intended to purge them all because he falsely believed they were agents of the Legion.

[Liira-kirin-tor]

@Katiera-moon-guard

and no nelf player or alliance player defends azshara’s crimes,

Well because NEs and Azsharas NE only share the name, they are practically completely different people.
The Elvess that ARE direct decendents from Azsharas Highborn are Bloodelves and Nightborn. Soooo Horde races.

[Zuleika-hyjal (Zuleika)]

@Droité-tanaris

The funny thing is, Sylvie only ever uses the Stormheim incident to convince Saurfang into agreeing with the WoT.

She actually never brought it up directly; he’s the one who thought about it.

[Mundin-gallywix]

@Katiera-moon-guard

already happened

Nope it hasn’t.

@Katiera-moon-guard

Something they are doing

Eh wouldn’t be too sure about that, I bet they’ll accept Sylvanas back with open arms after Shadowlands.

[Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord (Irenaus)]

@Liira-kirin-tor

I literally hate nearly every horde player i ever encountered.

Interesting how posts like this get no likes.

[Zuleika-hyjal (Zuleika)]

@Dakore-wyrmrest-accord

Baine and Anduin are both written as the “morally pure peace-mongers” but they’re both hated by players of their respective factions. Mostly because they’re peace-making gets in the way of “I want to beat up the other faction and I don’t want to be told I suck for wanting that”.

I don’t know about Anduin, but the main reason Baine is disliked is because he’s willing on multiple occasions to sell out his own people/faction in order to get peace. He’s seen as a Neville Chamberlain type.

@Sarm-malganis

That they intentionally ended this one with unresolved bad blood just gives everyone an “oh for crying out loud” feeling.

Yeah, especially after they said (or at least implied) in the publicity for BfA that they were going to resolve the faction war for good.

[Liira-kirin-tor]

@Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord

Interesting how posts like this get no likes.

Not posting to be liked, but to tell you how I see you.
If my sole desire would be to be liked by random people I’d just post how much i love sylvanas and the horde and how cool it is to burn children and commit genocide.

This way it would be extremly easy.

Not my interest.
You know you have hit a nerve and found teh truth when people of one specific and destinctive group rallys up to hate on you for what you say. Then you know you’re right.

[Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord (Irenaus)]

@Liira-kirin-tor

Not posting to be liked, but to tell you how I see you.

That’s clear. Just an interesting lack of introspection.

@Liira-kirin-tor

You know you have hit a nerve and found teh truth when people of one specific and destinctive group rallys up to hate on you for what you say. Then you know you’re right.

Not really. Being a jerk to a group will earn dislike, plain and simple. As an Alliance player, your poor attitude is apparent even to me.

[Liira-kirin-tor]

Well I basically dislike your group, attitude, moral standings, your behaviour and your stances, I a deeply disgusted by that tribalism horde players do.

I was disgusted as hell when during that one blizzcon HORDE PLAYER PHYSICALLY ATTACKED some guys wearing alliance shirts just because of this! Your group caters and lures in the most disgusting people i can think of. Because our groups identity is based on the most horrible things imaginable. Genoice, Murder, Pillaging etc.

Or remember the corpsegrinder video?! Where members of your groupe basically said alliance PLAyERS should be killed and murdered because they play alliance?!
THIS is what your group is about. THIS is your identity and core.

I have no, not the slightest interest in being even liked by you. In that case I’d know i do something wrong.

If bad people like what you I do, I’d probably be as bad.

Your whole group is just rotten within its core. Composed of disgusting individuals and their behaviour is allways the same. You are bullying, you are insulting, you are trolling, you are trampeling on other people. All the time.

The Horde was designed as a faction of pure evil and of course people who identify with these deeds are in their own morality problematic. But they are utterly horrendous when they even cheer for these things.

[Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord (Irenaus)]

@Liira-kirin-tor

Well I basically dislike your group, attitude, moral standings, your behaviour and your stances, I a deeply disgusted by that tribalism horde players do.

I’m not really a Horde player, as I said.

@Liira-kirin-tor

I was disgusted as hell when during that one blizzcon HORDE PLAYER PHYSICALLY ATTACKED some guys wearing alliance shirts just because of this!

@Liira-kirin-tor

Or remember the corpsegrinder video?! Where members of your groupe basically said alliance PLAyERS should be killed and murdered because they play alliance?!

Both sides have these kind of people. But you’ve taken one offs and associated them to the group as a whole. Because you’ve bought into the very tribalism mentality of us versus them.

Instead of empathy or nuance, you’ve essentially put yourself in feedback loop. You view Horde players as bad, so you treat them negatively. You treat them negatively, so they show their dislike of you. You take their show of dislike from your actions as proof they are bad.

@Liira-kirin-tor

Because our groups identity is based on the most horrible things imaginable. Genoice, Murder, Pillaging etc.

Simply untrue. Both in that we have the writers telling us precisely the designed identity of the Horde and that the Alliance involves it at times. And at the same time, I’ve seen plenty of Alliance players saying they wish they could genocide and murder on this forum. And Horde players saying they wish their bad stuff was toned down. These groups have a lot of variety.

@Liira-kirin-tor

You are bullying, you are insulting, you are trolling, you are trampeling on other people. All the time.

@Liira-kirin-tor

shame … stopped reading here.

crying about a crythread to cry even more that others cry is allways the pinacle of hypocricy and total lack of self reflection.

Since I’ve noticed you on this forum, most of what I’ve seen is just you being a jerk.

And on this note, I see Horde players and my fellow Alliance players being jerks on here all the time. There are a lot of bad posters on both ends. That’s a simple fact from years of observation.

@Liira-kirin-tor

The Horde was designed as a faction of pure evil and of course people who identify with these deeds are in their own morality problematic.

The Horde was not designed as a faction of pure evil, we objectively know the design decisions of the writers. They’ve done interviews about it.

[Liira-kirin-tor]

@Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord

I’m not really a Horde player, as I said.

Sorry that you was more or less a plural you.

@Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord

Both sides have these kind of people

I fail to remember a concert of … no idea metallica calling out for the murder of horde players.
I also fail to remember a post where morheim had to apologize to the horde players because the Alliance players made ever Horde palyer feel unwelcome at blizzcon and physically assaulted them.

The whole “both sides do it” is utter nonsense and apologistic.

@Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord

Instead of empathy or nuance, you’ve essentially put yourself in feedback loop. You view Horde players as bad, so you treat them negatively. You treat them negatively, so they show their dislike of you. You take their show of dislike from your actions as proof they are bad.

I have lost every ounce of sympathy or empathy for this player base. They made sure I did. I only feel deep and utter disgust for them.
I have had enough you them cheering over burning children and how awesome and cool genocide is. I got enough of that 2 years ago to be fed up for a lifetime.

And I see the exact same beahviour EVERYWHERE on the forums by them.
You don’t simply see this from alliance players. This kind of rallying tribalism and group wide bullying. And I’m not talking about me here.

Sure it is some kind of believe preservation and conformation bias. But to be honest, just reading THIS one thread is enough to prove the reality is not far off.

I am just done with horde players in general. They have to prove to me they are different but most fail to. And I am no longer interested in playing along.
I call them out.

I am simply no longer interested in pretending they are all good people, they are not. Some? Sure … probably… most? No way.

There are so many evidences about how toxic and bad this one particular group is and is behaving. (Wasn’t even christie golden pointing out that this is the case? How she experienced it?)
Now they cry out and victimize themself when they have to taste a few times their own poison.

I’m a mirror.

[Drahliana-earthen-ring (Drahliana)]

@Droité-tanaris

A race of thrice blessed flawless people in a flawless civilization. Naturally gifted with long life, immense talent, unparalleled in magic potential, and physical aptitude that is on par with even the Horde’s most physically impressive races?

The ancient Night Elf civilisation was far from flawless, they were xenophobic, arrogant, extremely caste-driven, and obsessed with power. It was basically a younger version of Melnibone, but working it’s way towards the same kind of decadence.

[Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord (Irenaus)]

@Liira-kirin-tor

I fail to remember a concert of … no idea metallica calling out for the murder of horde players.
I also fail to remember a post where morheim had to apologize to the horde players because the Alliance players made ever Horde palyer feel unwelcome at blizzcon and physically assaulted them.

Because these are minor anecdotes and media coverage rarely goes over ‘Alliance player says mean things to Horde player’. It is a sampling issue that’s further misapplied to a massive group.

@Liira-kirin-tor

I have lost every ounce of sympathy or empathy for this player base. They made sure I did. I only feel deep and utter disgust for them.

And that’s the problem. You’re painting some hundreds of thousands of people with one brush over a video game.

@Liira-kirin-tor

I have had enough you them cheering over burning children and how awesome and cool genocide is. I got enough of that 2 years ago to be fed up for a lifetime.

I’ve had enough about Nuremburg Trials, reparations, and demands for murder, torture, and genocide of Horde. It is a video game where every expansion there’s a quest to clean up some poop. But I try not to let that taint my view of Alliance players.

@Liira-kirin-tor

You don’t simply see this from alliance players. This kind of rallying tribalism and group wide bullying. And I’m not talking about me here.

I mean, I do. Over years I’ve seen a lot of it from both sides. It just feeds into each other. Which is by design from Blizzard, they actively encourage both groups to be that way.

@Liira-kirin-tor

Sure it is some kind of believe preservation and conformation bias. But to be honest, just reading THIS one thread is enough to prove the reality is not far off.

It is absolutely confirmation bias when you’ve been a jerk in this very thread. Even the concept of the thread is clearly a bit wanky.

@Liira-kirin-tor

They have to prove to me they are different but most fail to.

No one will ever prove themselves if they’re treated a certain way. Hence the loop. I used to really rag on the Horde. But when I try to not be a jerk (not always easy), it always gets better results.

At the end of the day, you can do whatever you want. But there’s no question that being hostile will garner more hostility (and eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind). Trying to be understanding will build more understanding.

@Liira-kirin-tor

Wasn’t even christie golden pointing out that this is the case?

Christie Golden has gotten flack in general for her self-inserts. Propping up her favorites like Anduin and Calia. And like, tweeting to specifically say Anduin isn’t homosexual? On this flipside, Danuser has gotten flack for Nathanos and Sylvanas. Being a Blizzard writer and active on Twitter is a volatile combination.

[Meteilssra-earthen-ring]

I’d be willing to admit that incidents described generally didn’t happen the other way, with Alliance trash-talking Hordies in such a manner. It’s got less to do with the in-game lore, and probably more about how the Horde became the capital-G Gamer faction in vanilla.

[Drahliana-earthen-ring (Drahliana)]

@Liira-kirin-tor

And I see the exact same beahviour EVERYWHERE on the forums by them.
You don’t simply see this from alliance players. This kind of rallying tribalism and group wide bullying. And I’m not talking about me here.

Actually what I see is the tribalism you’re displaying now. The blanket brush painting of an entire player group based on your interactions with a couple of vocal people on this forum.

The Horde does have a bit of gothic and biker appeal to them, but that’s hardly as pure a picture of the Horde now as opposed to when it was just orcs, trolls, undead,and tauren. It still does draw the same kind of people that would cosplay as Klingons, and those folk on the whole are good and mutually supportive people. Playing a Horde race is generally playing a race that’s either considered monstrous or has been rejected by the "norms’ of the Alliance. That builds a kind of camaraderie that’s not seen in Alliance races, which distrust each other only less than they distrust those outside.

Forums such as these draw the toxic and loudest of a culture base. They’re more distorted funhouse mirrors than a true vision.

There are issues with how Blizzard has made the two factions. The Horde racials favor raiding which why all the top raid groups are Horde. Alliance racials are geared more towards the leveling experience and become less relevant in raids. The resulting preponderance of Horde guilds at the elite end of play has a cultural effect on the player base.

[Talkaar-wyrmrest-accord]

Yall need to go outside. Seriously, I’ve been in many fandom and Warcraft is the only one that spawns people who somehow blame the fans for what fictional characters do.

Can you imagine saying you’re a n*zi for liking Darth Vader?

Oh wait, that happened, never mind, carry on.

[Liira-kirin-tor]

@Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord

Because these are minor anecdotes and media coverage rarely goes over ‘Alliance player

Ohhh you are a victim of biased media coverage … I see! Well that makes sense of course… no that your faction just is toxic in its core.

@Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord

And that’s the problem. You’re painting some hundreds of thousands of people with one brush over a video game.

Pretty sure the media coverage is the reaon why my view on them is so bad, bot their actions and behaviour I expeirenced myself.

@Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord

I’ve had enough about Nuremburg Trials, reparations, and demands for murder, torture, and genocide of Horde. It is a video game where every expansion there’s a quest to clean up some poop. But I try not to let that taint my view of Alliance players.

yes of course, it is cooler when you can bully without fearing consequences. And the ones demanding siad consequences are thus bad and annyoing and obnoxious and shouldn’t be allowed to talk and so on… right?

I understand it. Getting some of the poison back is not fun…

@Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord

Which is by design from Blizzard, they actively encourage both groups to be that way.

No Blizzard is not to blaim. Blizzard paints a very clear (yet sometimes nuenced) picture. No matter how you turn it Genocide IS genocide and it is horrible. It is not blizzard fault when players of teh commiting faction are cheering and joying over burned children. Blizzard painted a horrible event the reaction was not blizzard. It was the plyers.

@Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord

No one will ever prove themselves if they’re treated a certain way. Hence the loop. I used to really rag on the Horde. But when I try to not be a jerk (not always easy), it always gets better results.

At the end of the day, you can do whatever you want. But there’s no question that being hostile will garner more hostility (and eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind). Trying to be understanding will build more understanding.

The question is at some point, do I want better results? It doesn’t change things. I wont convince the “sylvnas did nuffing wrong” faction to ackknowledge that genocide is PRETTY WRONG.
Why shoudl I even bother anymore? I have learned that you don’t convince people. They preserve their believes no matter what… people change their believes only if a severe incident happens.

So what is my goal? Not getting people to see that XYY is wrong. But just to tell them based on their actions, views and behaviour that at least I dislike them and feel disgusted by it.

@Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord

Christie Golden has gotten flack in general for her self-inserts. Propping up her favorites like Anduin and Calia. And like, tweeting to specifically say Anduin isn’t homosexual? On this flipside, Danuser has gotten flack for Nathanos and Sylvanas. Being a Blizzard writer and active on Twitter is a volatile combination.

What has that to do with her expeirencing the horde faction of being composed and infected, even contaminated by a deep core of toxic players. In such a dramatic way that even she noticed it on the fly.

I think and I am deeply convinced that most of the horde players are in deep and utter denial of how bad their faction is bahaving, perecieved and seen because of their own action.

Is everyone in the horde bad? No of course not … but they fail to ackknowledge their rotten core and deny it. They even deny discussion about it an dgo full on defense mode … even becoming aggressive as hell and thus proving the accusations right.

That is my issue I have with this faction and a lot of members of such.
The ones who arent toxic are at least be ok with it.

@Meteilssra-earthen-ring

I’d be willing to admit that incidents described generally didn’t happen the other way, with Alliance trash-talking Hordies in such a manner. It’s got less to do with the in-game lore, and probably more about how the Horde became the capital-G Gamer faction in vanilla.

This is what I mean with the horde is composed of mayjor toxicity.
I might be not able to express myself here the way I want to… But that is my issue I have with this faction.

The amount of people being toxic and just jerks is just astonishigly high within THIS faction and no amount of whataboutism or apologism changes that.

It does not mean … an I want to apologize for this here, that every hord eplayer is a jerk or toxic.

I just want to say that the amount of them is extremely high in that faction AND it gets cultivated there.
And I am sadly a direct product of that toxic behaviour, i am fed up by this to a point where I am no longer even interested to understand it.

[Katiera-moon-guard (Katiera)]

Honey blizzard does not have a gun to your head saying you have to defend genocide lol if you listen to the devs they want you to hate Sylvanas and her loyalist they want you to want to rip out the cancer in the horde if you are defending Sylvanas war crimes that’s on you

[Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord (Irenaus)]

@Liira-kirin-tor

Ohhh you are a victim of biased media coverage … I see! Well that makes sense of course… no that your faction just is toxic in its core.

I wouldn’t say biased. But flawed sampling is a thing.

@Liira-kirin-tor

yes of course, it is cooler when you can bully without fearing consequences. And the ones demanding siad consequences are thus bad and annyoing and obnoxious and shouldn’t be allowed to talk and so on… right?

There’s a difference to me between demanding consequences and demanding murder, torture, genocide, and war crime trials in a fantasy video game.

And I didn’t say they shouldn’t be allowed to talk.

@Liira-kirin-tor

I understand it. Getting some of the poison back is not fun…

I don’t like it on either side, lol. I don’t like Alliance or Horde demanding torture and genocide.

@Liira-kirin-tor

No Blizzard is not to blaim.

I’m pretty sure Blizzard has specifically said they want to give Alliance and Horde players reason to dislike each other.

@Liira-kirin-tor

Blizzard paints a very clear (yet sometimes nuenced) picture. No matter how you turn it Genocide IS genocide and it is horrible.

In an interview Ion said ‘World of Warcraft has always been shades of gray, NOTHING is black and white’, or close to that. Yet I still see players on both sides asking for genocide.

@Liira-kirin-tor

The question is at some point, do I want better results?

Well I think better by definition is more desirable.

@Liira-kirin-tor

It doesn’t change things. I wont convince the “sylvnas did nuffing wrong” faction to ackknowledge that genocide is PRETTY WRONG.

Because there’s a lot of people in the middle ground that aren’t ‘sylvnas did nuffing wrong’ that are cool/reasonable people when people aren’t jerks to them.

@Liira-kirin-tor

I have learned that you don’t convince people. They preserve their believes no matter what… people change their believes only if a severe incident happens.

I disagree, both in myself and others, people can be convinced. Not everyone, of course.

@Liira-kirin-tor

What has that to do with her expeirencing the horde faction of being composed and infected, even contaminated by a deep core of toxic players. In such a dramatic way that even she noticed it on the fly.

I don’t even know the tweet you’re referencing. But that the writers get a lot of hate from all sides (with Golden being a specifically heavy pro-Alliance writer) and that Twitter is a bad media for understanding hundreds of thousands of people.

@Liira-kirin-tor

No of course not … but they fail to ackknowledge their rotten core and deny it.

Well because you haven’t even proved that. You have hundreds of thousands of people and expect them to be responsible for some jerks of unknown size that exist on both sides of a video game fandom.

@Liira-kirin-tor

It does not mean … an I want to apologize for this here, that every hord eplayer is a jerk or toxic.

I just want to say that the amount of them is extremely high in that faction AND it gets cultivated there.
And I am sadly a direct product of that toxic behaviour, i am fed up by this to a point where I am no longer even interested to understand it.

Look, I get it. Trying to deal with amorphos groups of so many people with bad experiences mixed in (that is encouraged by the designers) will breed a certain mindset. But at the end of the day, what does adding vitriol do? What does saying ‘I dislike you and feel disgusted by your group’ do? It feeds hate. You push more reasonable people against you. Which in turn pushes reasonable people on the other side to be more aggressive. And it just feeds into a cycle of people being jerks.

You only get back what you put in. Putting out negativity to others will inevitably give you more negativity. Putting out positivity will at the very least if not bring back more positivity, it’ll bring back less negativity. And if we’re accepting negativity is bad (that we dislike people being jerks) then trying to be understanding seems inherently better than a route of self-destructive argumentation.

I’m hardly a saint. But I think aiming for good results will always work out better.

[Zanthora-ragnaros]

@Liira-kirin-tor

The question is at some point, do I want better results? It doesn’t change things. I wont convince the “sylvnas did nuffing wrong” faction to ackknowledge that genocide is PRETTY WRONG.
Why shoudl I even bother anymore? I have learned that you don’t convince people. They preserve their believes no matter what… people change their believes only if a severe incident happens.

You were told on EU forums that there is no collective hivemind among players, and that you can find edgelords everywhere and that is not a reason to condemn thousands of players that happen to play red team (and they do it for multiple reasons).

But I see that you completely disregarded that and continue to cultivate tribalistic view which is something you accused of a huge amount of playerbase. To call it ironic is understatement.

You call people toxic for merely disagreeing with you, and yet you’re the one who is spouting that you hate the Horde players. So half of playerbase you never had a chance to meet.

Here is a newsflash - nowadays a lot of people play both sides to see the other point of view. You can find both good and bad people everywhere, surely someone who claims to study psychology would know such basics, right?
And surely you would know each person will differ when it comes to opinions and it would be wiser to treat people individually than painting them with wide brush.

But I’m sorry I got in your way of making toxic example of yourself. Please carry on.