We need range Survival Hunters back

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

For the spread to be an issue, we have to be talking about a large enough distance that once should focus on ST damage, even if one has to swap to another boss arcoss a room.

Which is what I’m talking about.

Now, I’m not up to date with the exact explosion radius of WfB.
But, let’s say that you have a 20 yard-spread between targets, just as an example.

Like I said, it’s weird.

I honestly have nothing against AMoC as an ability, as well as it being a CD.

What makes me question AMoC, is the fact that all current hunter specs have access to it. IMO, it’s an ability that should be intended for BM.

Ofc, this is just my opinion.
MM, considering the design and fantasy of the spec, how does an ability like AMoC make sense to have as an option?
For MSV, again, it’s a bit more plausible/makes a bit more sense as the spec has a fair deal to do with managing beasts/the wild.
In the case of MSV, I just keep thinking that there’s something the spec could have that would make more sense, that would be more interesting, and more connected to the fantasy.

I think that I got my posts/threads mixed up. I mean Class Fantasy with SV using it’s DOTs.

You mean MSV or in case we could get RSV as a 4th spec?(this in reference to the topic of this entire thread).

A large part of that funnel it WFB’s cone.

How does the Bloodseeker bleeding target effect benefit Wildfire Bomb?
It increases your attack speed
What am I missing atm?

What I like the most about Blood Seeker is the Attack Speed bonus.

In all honesty, Bloodseeker is actually one of the better designed talents of the entire class.
Sure, everyone might not actually like the mechanics behind it. But they are certainly more interesting than that of, as an example, Scent of Blood for BM.
Or Venomous Bite.

Going back to MSV, something that I feel they could’ve done differently, is the fact that the spec has both talents: Alpha Predator + Guerilla Tactics.
2 different talents, making 2 different abilities having 2 charges as well as making those abilities deal a bit more damage.

I guess it’s a matter of personal preferences here.

Oh, yeah, and I forgot. The bonus effect on Butchery also reduces the remaining CD of your Wildfire Bomb. Based on the number of targets hit, up to a max ofc.

Sorry for that! You here, have another way to deal more damage for both ST as well as for stacked AoE, by AoE-ing multiple targets.

Also wife aggro so I’m distracted.

Best to aim for getting out of LoS!

[Naham-argent-dawn]

Which is what I’m talking about.

Now, I’m not up to date with the exact explosion radius of WfB.
But, let’s say that you have a 20 yard-spread between targets, just as an example.

That case I focus on ST damage, no matter the Spec. Just the same, Harpoon and Disengage comes in handy for me. I ain’t a top tier guy. I’m a super casual.

I honestly have nothing against AMoC as an ability, as well as it being a CD.

What makes me question AMoC, is the fact that all current hunter specs have access to it. IMO, it’s an ability that should be intended for BM.

I disagree that it should be only BM, we need to stop thinking about Specs and start thinking about Class. Class wise it makes sense.

You mean MSV or in case we could get RSV as a 4th spec?(this in reference to the topic of this entire thread).

Both

How does the Bloodseeker bleeding target effect benefit Wildfire Bomb?
It increases your attack speed
What am I missing atm?

There’s a Bleed with WFI that is AoE with Carve/Butchery.

In all honesty, Bloodseeker is actually one of the better designed talents of the entire class.
Sure, everyone might not actually like the mechanics behind it. But they are certainly more interesting than that of, as an example, Scent of Blood for BM.
Or Venomous Bite.

Aggreed

Going back to MSV, something that I feel they could’ve done differently, is the fact that the spec has both talents: Alpha Predator + Guerilla Tactics.
2 different talents, making 2 different abilities having 2 charges as well as making those abilities deal a bit more damage.

I guess it’s a matter of personal preferences here.

Pretty much. You have several builds that you can do. Latent Poison and Hydra’s Bite has some interesting thoughts one can do.

Best to aim for getting out of LoS!

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

@Naham-argent-dawn

That case I focus on ST damage, no matter the Spec.

Understandable.
The thing is, this is essentially how it is for all of the current hunter specs. The things we can do to deal damage to multiple spread out targets at once, are not really that beneficial. More often, we do better by focusing on ST damage.
(Stacked AoE aside ofc).

Sure, you could put up SS on them both/all of them.
If you have 2 charges of WfB, you could use one on each target.
Though, considering the CD, this would most likely not be that good(unless you need to get the targets down at the same time and they don’t share health).

Heck, even BM has sort of a way to “multi-dot”.
You have Barbed Shot!!!
Although, part from when you have a lot of luck on getting multiple Wild Call procs in a row, so you can keep pressing Barbed Shot without running out of stacks, this is not really a good way to use the ability.

@Naham-argent-dawn

I’m a super casual.

What defines being Casual really?
Content type? Difficulty level of said content? Time spent online? Etc.

@Naham-argent-dawn

I disagree that it should be only BM, we need to stop thinking about Specs and start thinking about Class.

Wouldn’t there be better ways to focus on Class Fantasy over Spec Fantasy?

@Naham-argent-dawn

Class wise it makes sense.

Even for MM, where the whole intent is to become a master at fighting with your ranged weapon?

@Naham-argent-dawn

Both

Aight.

Well, if you consider the current theme of MSV. And the past focus of RSV.
I would not be against that.

Heck, you have my suggestion for RSV here(bring those DoTs!):

[Suggestions updated] Pre-Legion Survival [4th spec]

As far as for MSV, I would prefer if the spec was more about actual melee-based combat but that’s my opinion ofc.
I would want the devs to switch out Serpent Sting(for MSV), in favor of a short CD based ability which coats your melee weapon(s) in snake venom. Which will, with all your attacks, apply a stacking/increasing DoT. On any target(s) you attack.

Why should only rogues have access to weapon-based poisons and such?
If you take into account what the history of the Hunter class has been about in terms of venoms/poison. It makes sense.

The whole fantasy of RSV as a spec, is that you’re the master of making animal venom as well as poison and explosives more potent.
Rogues got nothing on SV hunters!

But yeah, we want what we want…sry, getting carried away here.

@Naham-argent-dawn

Pretty much. You have several builds that you can do. Latent Poison and Hydra’s Bite has some interesting thoughts one can do.

Yep.

[Naham-argent-dawn]

Sure, you could put up SS on them both/all of them.
If you have 2 charges of WfB, you could use one on each target.
Though, considering the CD, this would most likely not be that good(unless you need to get the targets down at the same time and they don’t share health).

Use the bombs on one target. Spreading it out is useless. SrS can be spread, but you don’t want to waste focus you should be spending on MB or RS.

What defines being Casual really?
Content type? Difficulty level of said content? Time spent online? Etc.

pretty much

Wouldn’t there be better ways to focus on Class Fantasy over Spec Fantasy?

Think of the Spec as part of the Class. It’s a facet, not the whole.

Even for MM, where the whole intent is to become a master at fighting with your ranged weapon?

In the end, you are still a Hunter. You still are in the natural world.

As far as for MSV, I would prefer if the spec was more about actual melee-based combat but that’s my opinion ofc.
I would want the devs to switch out Serpent Sting(for MSV), in favor of a short CD based ability which coats your melee weapon(s) in snake venom. Which will, with all your attacks, apply a stacking/increasing DoT. On any target(s) you attack.

Keep the hybrid aspect of it, but add more melee abilities. Adding a poison with your melee weapon vs. a bleed should be a talent choice. Adding both can add complexity with a Class Blizzard is known to put very poor quality to.

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

Use the bombs on one target. Spreading it out is useless. SrS can be spread, but you don’t want to waste focus you should be spending on MB or RS.

Idd.

Think of the Spec as part of the Class. It’s a facet, not the whole.

Agreed, though we all have varying definitions of how this applies to a class. Like Hunters.

To me, the core essence of the class. Is this:

Hunter - Fights with a ranged weapon while being aided by a loyal companion(pet).
(short version here ofc).

Now, depending on which spec you choose within the Hunter class, you ofc have certain outliers that highlights that chosen spec and it’s fantasy.
Based on my preferences/vision:

Beast Mastery - Ranged weapon spec. The outlier is the fact that you should focus more on interacting with as well as empowering your loyal companion.
Along with some other nuances.

Marksmanship - Ranged weapon spec. The outlier being the fact that you’re more of a ranger. The spec does not focus on the use of pets in any way. Beyond the very basics.

Survival(Melee) - Melee weapon spec. Here, the outlier is the fact that your fight style mostly focuses on melee based weapons.
The connection to the core fantasy of the class, is the fact that this spec should have pet involvement. You should, to a degree have a playstyle that includes pets.
As for nuances, we all have different opinions ofc. If you ask me, I would prefer if the ways the spec focuses on involving pets, wouldn’t be as close to Beast Mastery as it currently is.

Survival(Ranged) - Ranged weapon spec. Here, an outlier would be that you focus on using animal venom, poison as well as explosives.
Unlike Marksmanship, you don’t focus on having perfect aim or shots that can pierce even the thickest of armor.
Hit the enemy in the arm and you know it will weaken them enough to go for the kill.
This spec should not be a second ranger-spec. We already have Marksmanship that fills that niche role(within the class). I here refer to my previous definition of the core fantasy of the class.

---

As for specifics, the core abilities and the offensive talents of each spec. Should speak to the fantasy of that spec.
As for keeping the class fantasy intact, utility/defensive capabilities and other secondary abilities, should for the most part be the same across the entire class.
Some minor differences and additions for each spec might not be all that bad.

As an example, BM having access to more pet-based utility and heals, and so on.
MM being better at keeping distance to enemies. Being more resistant to CC and/or movement impairing effects.
MSV, can be a combination of the pet aspects of BM along with certain trap-based utility.
RSV, also somewhat focused on pet-based utility. Also focusing on Traps.

Note: Not saying that only the SV specs should have access to traps. NOT AT ALL!
But MSV+RSV, considering the history, should be the specs where the use of Traps, is a more defined part of the toolkit.

Sorry, getting carried away again

Keep the hybrid aspect of it, but add more melee abilities. Adding a poison with your melee weapon vs. a bleed should be a talent choice.

Agreed.

This is it for me for the evening btw. Live in EU and the clock says 2:25AM. Gotta get some sleep!

[Naham-argent-dawn]

Live in EU and the clock says 2:25AM. Gotta get some sleep!

Good Night!

[Bepples-barthilas]

Marks has one available as well. Ghorak should remember that MSV is still a Hunter Spec and it’s intellectually dishonest to say otherwise.

I’ll say it, though. It’s not a real Hunter spec. The original WoW manual defined Hunters by their use of ranged weapons, as did every Hunter description up until Legion. A Hunter spec that lacks a ranged weapon is not a real Hunter spec.

[Bepples-barthilas]

Didn’t it just not have a resource cost?

No, it was unusable because it cost Mana. We used it to point out how unfinished we were.

BTW I looked it up. I found its tooltip still said it cost mana, but does this mean it was actually unusable? I couldn’t find whether that part was true.

Also, isn’t that an indictment on Counterattack still being in the game rather than the Focus system as a whole? Counterattack had little reason to exist in Cataclysm.

[Naham-argent-dawn]

BTW I looked it up. I found its tooltip still said it cost mana, but does this mean it was actually unusable? I couldn’t find whether that part was true.

Yes, it was. I tried it.

Also, isn’t that an indictment on Counterattack still being in the game rather than the Focus system as a whole? Counterattack had little reason to exist in Cataclysm.

It was proof that they gave the Class little attention despite giving it a new resource. It wasn’t because of the fact that it was “Counter Attack,” but because Blizzard didn’t have the ability to care about our Class. Remember when they said that we were playing SV wrong only to admit that they did not even know how to play it? That was the same era.

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

@Bepples-barthilas

The original WoW manual defined Hunters by their use of ranged weapons, as did every Hunter description up until Legion.

True.

But I wouldn’t say that this has to stop the class from evolving, going forward.

I stick to my opinion that, they should NOT have removed ranged SV just because they wanted to add in a melee spec. They should’ve made it a 4th spec from the start.
But as long as they had kept the specs we had at the time, as they were in terms of general playstyle and focus, going forward. I would have nothing against them adding in a melee option for those that would want one.

This is not what happened…

I have mentioned this in the past. They did an interview in connection to the development for the Legion expansion. There’s a link to this interview somewhere in this very thread. Somewhere closer to the earlier replies.

In this interview, the lead devs flat out stated that a big reason for why they chose to make SV a melee spec was because they felt that ranged SV was to similar to MM. It was essentially the same spec, just with different arrows or traps.

Now, I haven’t talked to any of them directly ofc. But reading this, you can’t help but thinking that there was no realistic way that this is what they actually thought of the specs.
Ask anyone who played the ranged SV spec in the past, ask anyone.
Most, if not all would answer that the defining core of what SV was about back then, and how it played, was very different from that of MM.

Sure, by todays standards you could find some similarities. But, considering the overall spec design that we have today, that kind of explains itself.

Forego my previous argument that the statement they gave in that interview wasn’t going to hold up anyway as all specs changed so drastically with Legion.
Either, those that were managing the development for the class back then, either they hadn’t actually played MM and SV, and that was the reason for why they thought they were the same as one another.

Or, the more likely scenario(IMO ofc), is that someone, or some within the team, really just wanted to add in a melee spec for the class. And while in the process of deciding what spec they should turn into melee, they ended up with SV, being that choice.

The fact that they chose SV for this, does not surprise me. Beast Mastery was essentially THE spec that most players associated with the core fantasy of the class. Changing that to melee would’ve caused even more outrage than what it did in the end. Marksmanship, there is just no logical way for why you should even consider this to be a spec that focuses on melee combat.

That left them with SV…

At least that makes for a much more plausible reason for why they decided to make SV a melee spec. Rather than the reason being that they just did not have a vision for what the ranged SV spec could be going into Legion. With a focus on Spec Fantasy and identity.
Rather than them thinking that they had to turn SV into a melee spec because there just was no way to make it distinguishable from MM(while still keeping it ranged).

---

@Bepples-barthilas

Ghorak:

Marks has one available as well. Ghorak should remember that MSV is still a Hunter Spec and it’s intellectually dishonest to say otherwise.

I’ll say it, though. It’s not a real Hunter spec. The original WoW manual defined Hunters by their use of ranged weapons, as did every Hunter description up until Legion. A Hunter spec that lacks a ranged weapon is not a real Hunter spec.

Btw Bepples, that quote of yours. It wasn’t I who said that.

---

Have edited in something in my original post in this thread which brings up my suggestions for a 4th spec option that is ranged SV.
#We need range Survival Hunters back - #457 by Ghorak-laughing-skull
Edited the passive Lock and Load effect.

Edit: Getting a proc from Lock & Load, won’t affect the base re-charge system of Explosive Shot. Example: If you have 2 charges of Explosive Shot available and you get a L&L-proc, you will then have 3 charges. 1 of which costs no Focus. Keep in mind that L&L has a limited duration.
When the buff expires, so does any extra charge that you haven’t yet used.

What does this mean?
Well, let’s say that you have 1 charge left of Explosive Shot, the 2nd charge, is still waiting to finish re-charging. No pun intended…

Then you get a L&L-proc.

You will now have 2 charges of Explosive Shot available to be used as you see fit.
However, that second baseline charge that was coming off CD in a bit, will continue to re-charge. So, if you haven’t yet used 1 of the 2 available charges before the 3rd comes off CD. You will then have a total of 3 charges available for use. Or 4, 5, 6…this all depends on how lucky you are with getting Lock and Load-procs.

But as the quote states(and due to how L&L worked in the past), it has a limited duration so, any extra charges not spent when the buff runs out, they will disappear as well.

---

Also added a completely new tab. It contains some ideas on potential Set Bonus effects/Bonus Traits. Depending on if we get a new e.g. progression system or similar.

[Inkarran-area-52]

Since we continue to want this (minus a couple guys), lol it seemed like time for a bump.

Really hoping the devs see some of the ideas in here and roll with it into a fourth spec.

A new idea I heard recently, was the combining of msv and BM. Which would open up the third spec, to have a ranger(ranged survival) return.

Any thoughts on how to tune or combine melee survival and beast mastery? I’d be curious to see it done since they now share so many abilities.

Also, super interested in how the ranger spec would evolve from how we were in cata/mop, to be competitive today. Penalties for being dispelled? Not dispellable at all? Increased front load dmg? (Having explosive shot or serpent sting not having good front load dmg was a big part of the Nerf that made the spec fall apart in the first place)

I hope to see some great things come out of the PTR in the future for 9.0

[Inkarran-area-52]

I personally loved the shot spamming from LnL that stacked the dmg higher. It would work amazing if you got multiple procs though. After they fixed the (shot clipping) it made for a faster paced play

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

@Inkarran-area-52

I personally loved the shot spamming from LnL that stacked the dmg higher. It would work amazing if you got multiple procs though.

That is the intent.^^

@Inkarran-area-52

After they fixed the (shot clipping) it made for a faster paced play

It did yes.

Although if you look at my design suggestions, in the talent section(the T.N.T.-talent)
#[Suggestions updated] Pre-Legion/Ranged Survival

That talent is designed for you to want to do some “clipping” with Explosive Shot, in order to increase the max duration of it. As it gives you extra uptime, and free damage.

I haven’t specified how much you should be able to extend ES with that mechanic, but I would say up to a max of 9 seconds or so, when you do it manually. And if you also get a proc on the Exotic Munitions-passive effect, it could be extended above the 9second mark.

Manually, you shouldn’t be able to keep ES up permanently on a single target. But with some luck on LnL-procs or Exotic Munitions, you could keep it up for quite some time.
Maybe even on two targets for cleave damage. Although, that’d require you to reach rng-heaven in terms of procs^^
This is also a reason for why I did some changes to my suggestion for LnL as a passive effect.
So that if you’re lucky with getting LnL-procs, it would make you capable of “carrying” more than 2 charges max of Explosive Shot. For a limited duration ofc. Due to the nature of LnL.

[Ogdenir-alleria (Ogdenir)]

This is from another thread, but would be a more possible solution to MSV and giving Hunters what they wanted as a melee option.

@Bepples-barthilas

I actually don’t think there should be a 4th spec. I guess it’s fine in an ideal world where developer time and resources are infinite, but they aren’t. It doesn’t make much sense for a DPS-only class to get a 4th spec, and frankly it doesn’t make sense for an entire Hunter spec to be purely melee at all given the established identity of the class and the miniscule audience for a melee Hunter. This is why I’ve been advocating a melee “subspec” of BM where picking a level 100 Gladiator-esque talent swaps out your ranged abilities for melee ones (e.g. Barbed Shot => Lacerate) for a damage/health boost.

BM has been in WoW lore the melee spec and would require the least amount of redesign:

Barbed Shot => Lacerate

Cobra Shot => Raptor Strike

Kill Command => Kill Command

Bestial Wrath => Bestial Wrath

Only two abilities would change to melee.

Then Blizzard would just have to take out Raptor Strike, Kill Command, and Coordinated Assault then reintroduce Explosive Shot back into MSV, so we have RSV again. I think Wild Fire Bomb fits more than Black Arrow, or give other bomb choices, like shrapnel bomb or sticky bomb, RSV core play-style should be poisons and elemental damage, not magical leave that for MM.

[Dipndotshot-tichondrius]

i kind of made a list of it in the middle part of this thread.

[Kindwolf-emerald-dream]

So SV just gets better and better as we scale. I’m starting to be able to reliably kill UH dks, which is really the only spec that’s on par with Survival atm.

Best spec ever.

[Watermist-skywall (Watermist)]

Kindwolf, you’re really an odd guy. You keep resurrecting this thread just to further hammer how much you like MSV.

It’s fine that you’re fun. Actually, I’m glad you’re having fun!

But, dude, it can — and does — come off like you rubbing salt in the wound. There are a fair number of players who outright lost their gameplay, and some of them hasn’t found another enjoyable alternate. Just leave them be.

And for goodness sake… let this thread die, please.

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

And for goodness sake… let this thread die, please.

When they give me my 4th spec option that is an updated ranged SV version. I’d be happy to leave this thread to the archives

[Ogdenir-alleria (Ogdenir)]

Kind already has tried to start a love MSV topic, but he was the only one posting and its dead now.

[Kindwolf-emerald-dream]

You mean the one with 62 replies? You silly dwarf.

I haven’t been on the Hunter forums in awhile, so just wanted to add my two cents.

I don’t really care if anyone thinks I’m wierd, or if this thread dies.

It actually is a perfect example of the ridiculous Anti SV mentality. And the spoiled people who can’t adapt and cry about something that is highly unlikely to happen.

All of which is very unhealthy.