[Wall of text] Dungeon finder isn't being "cut" from Wrath Classic

WoW Classic Cataclysm Classic Discussion
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Disclaimer: I do think it would be okay to introduce dungeon finder with the ICC phase in Wrath Classic. I personally don’t ever want to see it in anything with the Classic tag, but I DO want to relive the experience, and dungeon finder was a part of that experience in late Wrath. This thread is simply a case for launching Wrath Classic without dungeon finder and leaving it that way at the very least until ICC and its 5-mans are released.

If you disagree with me on dungeon finder ever being implemented, that’s not the point of this thread.

We can’t say that Dungeon Finder is being cut from Wrath, because it isn’t iconic to the Wrath experience by any objective metric I can think of. In my opinion, dungeon finder in Wrath Classic should only have ever been a “maybe” at best.

  • Wrath of the Lich King systems and balance were implemented during its pre-patch (3.0.2) on October 14th, 2008.
  • 420 days pass.
  • Dungeon Finder is introduced in patch 3.3.0 on December 8th, 2009 along with Icecrown Citadel and it’s 5-man dungeons.
  • 308 days pass.
  • Cataclysm systems and balance were implemented during its pre-patch (4.0.1) on October 12th, 2010.

We had Wrath without dungeon finder for 112 days longer than we had Wrath with it. So if we’re deciding whether Dungeon Finder is truly iconic of the Wrath experience based on how long we had it, it wouldn’t make that cut.

We had more content phases without dungeon finder than we had with it. There was no dungeon finder for 3 raiding tiers (T7, T8 and T9), and then we had it for 1 raiding tier (T10). If you include non-tiers (Eye of Eternity, Obsidium Sanctum, Ruby Sanctum, Onyxia) the amount of content becomes 6 raids without dungeon finder, 2 raids with it. Either way, there’s 3 times as many raids without dungeon finder than with, whether you count non-tier raids or not. Even if you don’t count Onyxia (since it was an anniversary event), there’s still more than double the raids whose existence happened entirely in Dungeon Finder’s absence.

Objectively, leaving dungeon finder out of Wrath would be more true to the Wrath experience than implementing it. HOWEVER, just as with the content phases and gated systems we’ve had in Classic up until now, I do think that dungeon finder has a reasonable place in Wrath. Just not the entire expansion. I think would perfectly reasonable for dungeon finder to be implemented in the ICC phase.

"But that’s not how it works!! Wrath pre-patch isn’t Wrath!"

Even if we DO pretend that an expansion only counts as an expansion while it’s actual content is live, we had 390 days without it and 363 days with it. Even with a handicap, Wrath had more time without than with it and there’s still the fact that we had much more content without dungeon finder than with it. Even being biased against the idea that Wrath officially began once we hit patch 3.0.0+, it still doesn’t make dungeon finder a necessity for an “authentic” Wrath Classic.

But that is how it works. An expansion’s major systems, engine updates and balance changes are implemented in it’s pre-patch. Hence, the Wrath pre-patch (3.0.2) starts with a 3 because that’s when the game files themselves transition from BC to Wrath. The only thing that isn’t implemented during the pre-patch is the content itself (increased level cap, quests, access to zones, dungeons/raids). Dungeon finder is a system feature that wasn’t implemented at launch (just like guild banks), not content.

"But it was available in the last patch of Wrath! Classic launches are based on the last patch of their respective content!"

Again, dungeon finder is a system feature. Classic launches are based on the last patch for balance purposes, not features, systems and content. This is why guild banks weren’t available in TBC Classic at launch even though guild banks were present in the last patch of TBC originally. It was implemented in TBC during a later phase (I think with Zul’Aman), so in TBC Classic, it was implemented in that respective phase of the game. This is also why we don’t have access to all of the raids at the launches even though they were present in the last patch of their respective expansions.

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Well said OP.

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Blizz didn’t say LFD would be added later like in OG WotLK, they said it wouldn’t be added period. THAT is why we are taking issue with this decision.

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that is why SOME of you are taking issue. Whole lot of the whining is people expecting it to be there at the start.

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The point is everyone reasonably expected WotLK to have LFD at some point during the game.

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At that point, I guess the discussion just becomes a matter of the devs’ design philosophy. It might be easier for me to see it this way because I’m personally very happy about this decision, but it’s certainly no secret that Wrath itself has always been the pivotal period where WoW went down the path Activision had laid for it rather than the one it was originally destined to travel. The whole reason why the community eventually strong-armed Blizzard into creating Classic in the first place is that we were sick of Retail and wanted to go back to Blizzard’s own founding design principles; “Gameplay First”.

I think there’s a good case to be made that Blizzard (especially under the direction of Microsoft) might choose the other path at the fork in the road this time around. I could never blame people for being upset about it if that were the case, but Classic breaking away from WoW’s descent into modern Retail was always a very realistic possibility.

The way I see it, Classic was either primarily intended to simply rerelease all of WoW’s old content with the intent of keeping the experience roughly the same as it was originally, or it was to right some of the wrongs and let players experience it again while pulling away from the design choices that were made over the years. A sort of “alternate ending”, if you will.

Yeah, I completely understand Shadows’ perspective on this issue, but that certainly isn’t the cause for all of this backlash. People obviously expected this to be a launch feature (a significnat portion of the dungeon finder spam threads have explicitly stated so).

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The former is what we were told Classic would be.

I would love to have LFD at pre-patch, but I’m willing to wait until later as long as we eventually get it.

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We’re getting the equivalent of patch 3.3.5 in WOTLK classic. Anything before 3.3.5 is irrelevant.

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All we ask for is a legal way to experience wrath as it was, not wrath as blizzard wants it to be.

this includes important things like LFD at least in ICC phase.

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Which includes LFD…

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You’re very right about that. However (and I think this is interesting, because the two of us may have actually discussed this), when I’ve brought up 2018 Blizzard’s many promises of authenticity on these forums as evidence that paid level boosts, store mounts and toys were a slimy bait and switch, I’ve always been told by people who disagree with me that they were referring only to Vanilla Classic and that they “couldn’t have been referring” to future Classic launches as none of them were set in stone at that point.

If I remember correctly, this was confirmed by Kaivax on these very forums. That leaves me with a problem. Either Blizzard have been brazenly lying this entire time and adding scummy monetization to the game against their very own mission statement, or Classic is in fact an alternate fork of WoW’s history. If it’s the former, then a lack of dungeon finder in all of Wrath is easily the very least of our worries.

Well, I can at least agree with you on dungeon finder being appropriate during the ICC phase. It genuinely doesn’t make me happy to see so many people unhappy about this. I do hope you can still enjoy Classic (much like I’ve been able to enjoy it even in spite of level boosts and the cash shop).

Dungeon finder won’t be implemented at least until ICC if we’re to expect “Wrath as it was”.

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And that’s fine.

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Sorry, I wasn’t trying to rub that in; I just wanted to be clear in case saying “wrath as it was” meant including it at launch like so many people do.

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Right, like, it’s not that I wouldn’t have taken it at launch if offered, but ICC is fine. Just like Dual spec, I’d like it early, but when it was released is fine as well, as long as they don’t make any proposed “changes” to it.

I’d rather wait for something and get it as it was, than get it early and it lose some of that.

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Sorry you took the time to write this ‘wall of text’, but it was in wrath, and it was definitely in wrath long enough to make the cut. Not only was it in long enough, it was a good enough feature to where it should be implemented during WOTLK Classic launch day. We’re also getting the 3.3.5 patch of wrath, which is when RDF was released, therefore should be part of the launch experience. Your entire post is well written, but unfortunately its the wrong opinion to have.

RFD is the type of feature that should be released on Wrath Classic launch day, or not at all. What good does it do to come at the end of Wrath when its used the least?

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Towards the end is when it will be needed the most. It’s also the most we can really ask for for an authentic wrath

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I didn’t mind the boost, mount and toys. The boost doesn’t impact TBC content, and the mount and toys are just cosmetic. Those were not fundamental changes to the game itself.

Now, same faction BGs are a fundamental change, and I was absolutely against it. What if Blizz decided to nerf EMFH too? I have no reason to believe they wouldn’t do this now. This is why I was #nochanges. It prevents these problems from occurring in the first place. The game would be exactly like it was, so everyone knows what to expect. This way they can decide for themselves whether or not they want to play the game instead of having it changed without warning.

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Should be added at the start, 0 reason not to do it.

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I get the ‘authenticity’ of getting it near the end of wrath, but the first phase is when people will be doing dungeons the most and make the most out of it. I know my entire guild is going to be spamming heroics nonstop during phase one. We’ll probably only do the daily once Ulduar hits and then thats it for the rest of the expansion. Might see some use leveling alts.

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This would get the most people playing for sure.

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