You have serious issues.
That seems like projection.
While the capstone section is a bit cleaner in the new version, I prefer the originally posted layoutâs placement of certain talents and the options available in the top and mid tiers.
Additionally, I just find it kind of an eyesore to have the 4-rows-tall diamonds on one side and 3-rows-tall diamonds on the other.
In this case, they⌠mostly make sense, but still, I feel like Iâd much prefer to see the dual 1-point nodes of the upper-mid diamonds arrive at the head of the middle tier instead, and to see a bit more pathing in general. Even if Exotic Munitions wouldnât get its full value without Black Arrow, for instance, itâd still be reasonable to let it path from Serpent Spread.
Apart from that, my main concern is one you might take as a necessary premise anyways: I feel that Multishot should be baseline, granted at level 8, 9, or 10. Saving that one point would actually do quite a bit for the otherwise rather constrained capstone sides. Without this, at the least it feels like Vespoid Venom, and either Exothermia and Serpentâs Focus or Wyrmstalker ought to have their point costs reduced slightly. Being unable to complete either capstone wing without sacrificing, say, Cobra Shot or EM: AS feels odd. Also, presently, starting from the top-right feels more efficient than running the left side.
Second largest concern: the âimprovedâ talents (Improved Black Arrow, Improved Explosive Shot) just arenât remotely exciting. Just like on all other trees that have them.
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First off, I really do appreciate the feedback/reasoning. Hopefully my answers below can help shed some light on my thought process, and improve your opinion of the new layout/structure.
Fair enough.
Well, I wasnât focusing all that much on making sure that each side is mirrored in a visually pleasing way, it certainly isnât something that is a ârequirementâ, if you look at many other spec trees currently on alpha.
Hmm, do you mean that there should be two 1-point nodes on each side, just below the 8 point line/bracket? Sorry, not entirely sure what you meant hereâŚ
Pathing is certainly something I keep coming back to, keep looking at what can/should be added. The lack of a path from Serpent Spread down to EM was an oversight, I did put one in there at first, but at a certain point I removed all paths to make it easier to rearrange some stuff, and when I was done, I managed to not add a path there.
Having said that, I canât imagine that it would change a lot, as there isnât really any scenario where you wouldnât wna take L&L, so you would be able to reach EM anyway.
But feel free to enlighten me, why do you feel that that particular connection from Serpent Spread to Exotic Munitions is necessary? (I have already added it to the calculator)
It was very much intentional, and in many ways, a requirement to put Multi-Shot in there. This is how itâs done throughout the entire class(ranged specs), so it would make no sense to not have it as a part of this tree as well. Having said that, YES, I do think that Multi-Shot should be baseline, and not a talent choice for hunter specs.
The fact that you wonât be able to âfill outâ a large portion of the capstone paths/nodes is very much intentional. If you take the example below for an AoE-build, the intent is that this build should be on par with other specs that invest into an AoE heavy build. Considering how good the spec was in the past when it came to AoE, Iâd say it should be on that level, even in this case. Despite how you wonât be able to pick every single node in the tree that boosts your AoE.
I want there to be plenty of options to increase throughput both for ST, but also for AoE. Which ones you go for should be determined based on your personal preferences in terms of gameplay, and the particular encounter that youâre up against. Example: On spread AoE/Cleave, T.N.T. probably wonât be something youâd want to pursue, as the intent is that it should have a fairly small radius. Another example is the fact that the bottom left side is focused on Immolation Trap, which is a ground-based ability. Some players really dislike that sort of gameplay, and donât want to be forced into picking it just because they have enough points to get it, and it is capable of providing a sufficient boost to AoE.
With this in mind, I wouldnât call the capstone section constrained, as much as itâs a matter of which sub-theme, or perhaps which type of ST-damage/AoE youâd want to pursue.
Example of an AoE-centered build:
#https://i.imgur.com/DYOURTW.png
Well, like you said, all specs have them in some form. I agree that they arenât particularly interesting picks, but it seems as if theyâre a requirement, being a part of any spec tree. At least in this case, compared to cases like the talent Sharp Barbs for Beast Mastery, a talent that boosts Explosive Shot, or Black Arrow damage is going to equate to a decent boost to overall damage. Both for ST, and for Cleave/AoE.
Aye, and it bugs me in each of those, too.
On the left you have a diamond that resolves in R4, and on the right, a diamond that resolves in R5. In chain, the left then extends from R4 to R7, while right extends only from R5 to R7.
This is of course in certain other talent trees, as well. They also tend, perhaps not coincidentally, to be among those I like least, as it means that certain blocks have less choice than others or assumes that the blocks must be entwined (breaking the spec simply into a right and left instead of various modular sections).
Again, my point was primarily just that it feels like one has 1-3 points too few overall, especially if dipping both into Cobra and Black Arrow talents.
I could get into my dislike of AoE/ST âbuildsâ (which usually act to the detriment of available actual/gameplay-affecting playstyles and playflows), but thatâs the crux of it: It feels like, by level 70, thereâs just not quite enough stuff on offer, especially to certain routes prior to capstone.
Because of that, even just making Multi-Shot baseline to Hunter, thus saving a point for this, BM, and MM (likewise short of âstuffâ) would go a significant way. Ideally, though, Iâd also like to see the more expensive paths tweaked just slightly.
Poor design could also be part of the majority of existing specialization Trees. That shouldnât make poor design a requirement.
If you absolutely must have them, they should, imo, never be the sole path to a given node. In that way they can act as slightly inferior nodes available to players who want less complexity in their loadout.
Rather than âhaving to deal withâ the additional complexity of any left-side talents beyond Cobra or capstones that add to oneâs rotation, for instance, one could just double down into Black Arrow and Explosive Shot damage, consuming 3 points that would otherwise be obliged to path through or into greater complexity.
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The left and right sides(of the first and second bracket) are more or less mirrored to one another, just that 1 side has been flipped upside-down.
Well, Iâve adjusted the talents you mentioned in the third row, so that theyâre now 1-pointers. It effectively gives you 2 more points in total to spend on other nodes.
Not entirely sure about what you said/meant regarding there not being enough âon offerâ. The first and second brackets have about the same amount of nodes as all of the other hunter spec trees. Itâs definitely âbottom heavyâ, which is intentional for the purpose of providing capstones for a larger number of sub-fantasies/playstyles, for people to pick between.
Not entirely sure what you meant here. Again, all spec trees have these types of nodes in some form. I assume the devs decided to put them in for, like you said, players that prefer the passive boosts over gameplay-altering talents. If not to serve as âfillersâ.
Simple. Banal damage nodes should not block (be a unique pathing node to) more interesting choices. They need to have other paths (which themselves have no banal damage nodes) to any node they path to, or they need to be terminal nodes.
They should, themselves, be choicesânever obligatory filler.
Fair enough if you donât enjoy such talents. But either way, theyâre quite common across the entire class.
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Beast Mastery has 6 nodes, currently, all of which do nothing but add passive damage, without any change to gameplay.
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Marksmanship has 10 such nodes.
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Survival has 11.
Not everyone enjoys talents that partially, or heavily changes how you play. A good design concists of talents where theyâre a mix of everything from pure passives, to passives that could have an indirect/direct impact on gameplay, to pure active abilities. Itâs also not feasible to put all the pure passives in branch-end points, as this would more or less force some players to go through more impactful talents, again, which they might not like, just to get to the ones that they do enjoy.
The fact that theyâve moved away from the talent design structure weâre seeing now, in Shadowlands, to what weâre getting in Dragonflight makes it much more difficult to separate the different types of talents.
On a different note, semi-related, I did make some further adjustments to the proposed tree. Swapped the positions of some talents on the left side of the middle section, to make it easier for anyone to reach the bottom left section. And I added some more paths/connections, both in the top left, and in the middle.
Sorry for contextually excessive analogy, but when weâre going for such breaks in precedent and extents of labor as a 4th spec, it seems really strange not to work in whatever changes to the class tree, or class baselines, as would be improvements also to that 4th spec.
Else⌠âWhy should I care about my diet? Everyone else is fat and sickly anyways.â
If the point is to make a good talent tree, and most people donât enjoy dull/stat-stick talentsâespecially when theyâre required to reach more interesting onesâwhy go out of your way to imitate that lackluster pain-point on the mere basis that itâs found elsewhere? We should be removing the problem, not using attaching it to spec design checklists. The problems, at the very least, are not worth purposely imitating.
Thatâs all I mean by it.
Again, choices by which to avoid other gameplay-changing choices are fine. Stat-sticks nodes are well utilized when they
- donât block access to gameplay choice, and
- arenât more powerful than the choices by which to build more complex builds (assuming optimal but real-context performance by those more complex builds).
But if youâre asking for feedback, Iâm not going to leave out what I see as a massively souring note just because it happens to be found elsewhere, too. Iâd rather not be handed a cow pie just because weâre in a ranchland.
Nice. Yeah, this looks good.
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Donât get me wrong, I do appreciate the feedback, even though I donât necessarily agree with all of it. But in response to what you initially based this on, that being the two talent nodes that are called Improved ES/BA, and what you then said about such nodes blocking off more interesting choicesâŚone of the two that actually does this is Improved ES, which is a required pick if you want to get to T.N.T.
In that specific case, you could ofc add a connection between T.N.T. and the talent to the top right of that one, called Exotic Munitions: Ever Burning.
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Some updates to the concept, most recently, based on thoughts related to: Moving Cluster Shot to the class tree, to where Explosive Shot currently is.
Links for importing the updated concept(s) into TalentTreeManager(TTM)
Updated class tree: https://pastebin.com/DD8AV8LE
Updated spec tree: https://pastebin.com/pxjdj0wx
As per the post in the linked topic, Iâve moved Cluster Shot over to the class tree, to take the place of where Explosive Shot currently is on live. For anyone who still wants a second option for AoE in that position(other than Barrage).
With this, I also added a new talent in the spec tree for RSV(Munitions), where Cluster Shot used to be. The new talent is primarily intended for priority target damage, and focuses on interactions with the class ability Kill Shot.
Tooltip:
Piercing Blows
Passive
Every time your Explosive Shot causes a critical hit, you gain a stack of Piercing Blows. At X stacks, you gain a charge of Kill Shot, and cause your next Kill Shot to be usable on any target regardless of their current health.If your Kill Shot fails to kill a target, your next Explosive Shot will deal 25% increased damage, and have a -% increased chance to deal critical damage to the target.
In addition, the effect that allowed for interaction between Cluster Shot and Explosive Shot has been moved to a different talent; Improved Explosive Shot, which is located in the capstone bracket. Previously, that talent was just a flat % increase to ES damage. The effect was previously a part of Cluster Shot itself, but no longer made sense to keep as part of that ability.
Updated tooltip:
Improved Explosive Shot
Passive
Damage dealt by Explosive Shot increased by 10%.Explosive Shot-charges which are still active on any target(s) hit by Cluster Shot will instantly erupt, dealing all remaining damage at once, to all enemies near the target affected by Explosive Shot.
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its easy to see you have put alot of work into this however you are flogging a dead horse. Evokers and demon hunters cant even get a 3 spec, no hope of hunters getting a forth.
Iâmma read that as being told to make a 3rd spec each for Evoker and Demon Hunters.
Will get right on that, boss.
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Oh my this has become serious obsessions. I think this is more because of the debate that was happening around SV hunter and not much about how much would it be played.
Still would be played only when Mm and BM are far behind it in DPS , and ofc mostly in PvP.
But cool bases Iâve concept
If we donât/stop providing feedback, they certainly arenât going to do it.
Not sure what youâre basing this on. History certainly indicates otherwise.
Was half in jest, but hey⌠Iâll take the trickster, mind-bendy, specific-exploitations, demon-of-a-thousand faces Bane spec for 500 (for DH).
- For Evoker, though⌠no clue for now, save as maybe some sort of hybridish support-centric spec that Details would have people think a joke unless it could calculate the value of accelerated DoT ticks on enemies, HoT ticks on and damage-stagger on allies, Haste stolen from enemies, etc.
I donât think a spec being (re)new(ed) would put it so far behind in popularity as to be rarely taken, as long as its niche is distinct enough.
At present, for ST boss fights, the problem was that you had SV as a mild bonus over BM despite greater irritations⌠until one got the bow, at which point a peak BM would beat it out anyways.
When something easier to both perform and to gear, and less intrusive on other opportunities (gearing a weapon unique to a single spec, much as on Enhance or Feral but a sharper in-role difference), would outperform the alternatives anyways, itâll obviously put a damper on interest for that other role.
In this case, it at least has the advantages ofâŚ
- less likelihood of being redundant in niche (unlike, say, the largely ST basis of DF SV due to overemphasis on MB),
- not requiring a different weapon and thereby giving up the majority of means of loot acquisition, and
- not competing with non-Hunters for weapons.
Given all those, it seems decently likely to hold up just fine.
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Youâre right it would be popular at start for sure
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Your definition of history has definitely its flaws. It was played in WoTLk , especially now since itâs a nostalgia spec. In MoP it was played in certain fights or raid tiers and in WoD it was played at the begging of the expansion. So much about your history statistic that it said otherwise.
Itâs like saying ret paladins are the most broken class ever. They manage to one shot bosses
It was played most of the time between 3.0 and 6.2. Really the only exception was 6.2. Otherwise it wasnât really âunpopularâ in any of those patches/tiers.
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Yea if you say so