Now that you’ve made tanks and healers have less value from dps trinkets, now please make dps unable to use tank trinkets, it is also a plague
Assuming a tank trinket has 100% of its budget allocated to damage effects, a tank could expect it to deal equivalent damage to a DPS trinket for them. DPS players would therefore deal ~33% less damage by equipping the tank trinket instead of one intended for their role.
In general, the trinket decision for tanks should feel more along the lines of “deal 100 damage and gain a defensive benefit” with an offensively-oriented tank trinket (or a more defensive option as needed), or “deal 100 damage” with a DPS trinket.
5 Likes
Can we put this in more familiar terms… let’s take Tainted Rageheart. How would each role handle this trinket?
2 Likes
Can we also try to make it so that we get less dps trinkets in our vault?! Was fishing for a splinter in my vault so opening it in tank spec and keep getting things like the silly signoll flare.
1 Like
In general I find these changes in poor taste and furthers pushes tanks and healers to feeling like second class citizens. Overall these roles are expected to typically take on more responsibility than a DPS, and are constantly punished.
For all reasonable levels of content, by which I specifically mean NOT pushing keys higher 20s/10s or whatever is the current reward cap at the time, Tank Damage intake on the exception of a few bosses hasn’t warranted the strict requirement or even a strong level of desire for mitigation.
Secondly, Tank trinkets have been notoriously under designed, and under tuned. With very strong exceptions every other tier. The last couple of tank trinkets that felt great all followed the example of “exceptionally large absorb shield and do some damage” (eg, Hakkar’s Scale, Splinter, and Rageheart.)
Lastly, why does this apply to cantrip items? While it can be argued that people want more role enforcement (protip, they don’t), it feels absolutely heavy handed to effect cantrip items which typically have been designed to be role agnostic. So for 2/3 of the Roles in the game we just get to no longer be excited when a (typically RARE drop) cantrip item drops because it’s just magically 33% less effective? By this virtue shouldn’t DPS be slammed by the 33% reduction in any cantrip effect that does healing or absorbing?
13 Likes
A perfectly reasonable thing aim for in theory, but, in practice, where many trinkets will not actually be dealing identical damage, tanks will ultimately use the higher damage one regardless of whether they’re meant for dps at 66% efficacy or tanks at 100%.
4 Likes
Rageheart has a lot going on in terms of its budgeted effects, so let’s use Gift of Ursine and Branch of the Tormented Ancient for our examples since they’re primarily just dealing damage. For the sake of the example, assume all current DPS trinket damage was also reduced by 33% for tanks/healers.
A tank would find that Gift deals about as much overall damage as Branch while also offering some defensive benefit ("100 damage + healing, vs “150*0.66=100 damage”). Branch would deal 50% more damage for a DPS player (“150 damage” vs. “100 damage + healing”). A healer would see the same numbers as a tank between the two options.
1 Like
In general, the trinket decision for tanks should feel more along the lines of “deal 100 damage and gain a defensive benefit” with an offensively-oriented tank trinket (or a more defensive option as needed), or “deal 100 damage” with a DPS trinket.
It’s a good design philosophy to have as it’s not “enjoyable” to have 30 to sometimes 50% of a tanks damage to come from passive trinket sources or a trinket you press every 2 minutes. It’s fun, that buttons I push and how well I execute my role to be a deciding factor more-so than external power sources, but this has not been achieved for a long time. So I’m sure for most tank players, faith is well, low.
In practice though, tanks are then balanced around that(I would assume). So we can safely assume tanks will be expected to do similar damage relative to dps currently with these effects being weakened? I worry about the “compensation” in an already dwindling tank population. Executing large hits or feeling yourself get stronger is important for the tank role, and trinkets did benefit that.
The issue with most “tank” specific trinkets, is outside of very niche ones(Cheat death trinkets) or just very powerful ones(rageheart or Lingering Psychic shell for two examples), most are passive “gain a small shield and do a little bit of damage.” With these types of underwhelming trinkets for tanks that exist tier to tier, why would we want to wear it? We’re not in danger of dying or if there is danger it’s very minor outside of extremely high M+ key levels, or most “tank” trinkets will have no impact outside of the two types I mentioned.
I do hope more effort goes into both tank balance(It’s pretty horrid when in some tiers, certain tanks need 30 to 40 to 50% buffs to even be “close”) AND making tank trinkets, “FEEL POWERFUL.” Otherwise, now it just feels like we’ll be wanting these trinkets, we won’t be getting them unless vaulted or everyone else has, and when we do wear them they are just going to be weaker.
7 Likes
The intention is not that tanks should never use DPS trinkets, but rather that they give up less by opting for a tank trinket. At the same time, tank trinkets should not be attractive options for other roles.
5 Likes
So going forward, we can and SHOULD expect Tank trinkets to actually be tuned much higher both offensively and defensive?
Because Dreadplates & Gift of Ursine was absolutely dead on arrival for both DPS and Mitigation.
9 Likes
Then shouldn’t the opposite be applied here? Couldn’t you actually buff Tank Trinkets Damage & Defense to a point a tank would prioritize it over DPS Trinkets?
4 Likes
Tank trinkets need to be attractive options for tanks.
As happens every expansion, most of them aren’t impactful in the slightest. Because being tankier does not kill bosses, tanks are just going to continue wearing damage trinkets that have the same opportunity cost but now provide less value.
17 Likes
One thing - I would rather like to see instead are labels to trinkets instead of a nerf (This trinket is meant for Tank/DPS/healer Specs) - so kinda opting tanks, dps and healers totally out of them by reducing their effectivness even more - later more on that.
In the past, Tank Trinkets have been very problematic in PVP (f.e. Psychic Shell in BFA) and PvE (esp. since you couldn’t target them as dps player without a tank spec). In particular, those with a cheat death effect have been very powerful for progress.
Having a scaling of damage effects with versatility also creates the situations that despite the 33% reduced effectiveness for tanks or dps players, some tend to perform still over the estimated values. That’s why I would suggest them only scale with those stats while being a tank /heal or dps player wearing it. So if a DPS Player equips Rageheart the scaling with vers. Is turned off.
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I would have gone for Diamond Laced Refracting prism as the example here personally.
Not a total pvp player, but it was the first that came to my mind, as it was fairly strong as SV back then in arena. You’re right, that one was also a troublesome one.
This. Why not add a category of ‘offensive’ tank trinkets that takes some of a tank’s defense and turns it into extra offense (and likewise for healers doing actual healing)?
Example:
Let’s say a trinket has a budget for 150 damage/heals/shielding, and that tanks have 3000 health, while healers and dps have 2000 health:
‘Defensive’ tank trinket: 150 shields (100 shields for dps and healers)
‘Offensive’ tank trinket: Up to 150 damage, based on 5% of max health (so dps and healers only get 100 damage)
DPS trinket: 150 damage (100 damage for tanks and healers)
Healer trinket: 150 healing (100 for tanks and dps)
‘Offensive’ healer trinket: Up to 150 damage, based on healing done. (Up to 100 damage for tanks and dps)
2 Likes
I remember mages wearing prism in arenas in BFA S2.
I have been playing this game since 2004, my take is that Tanks should tank. Make tank trinkets valuable and not DOA. The 33% damage nerf for tanks and heal is FINE imo. I don’t want to be yelled at for using Tank trinks and NOT dps ones when I am tanking.
2 Likes
I like that Idea personally to have offensive tank trinkets instead of having them wearing dps ones. I kinda see something along the lines “during ironfur/shield block” gain X absorb and deal increased damage with ability X. So rewarding players for using their defensive mitigation.
This is on the development team. Don’t make our trinkets attractive to DPS players!
1 Like