so make tank trinkets better.
this sounds unnecessarily complicated. Trinkets should do what they say they do, not have 3 different functions by role.
5 Likes
Can you make tank trinkets not pretty universally garbage then? I promise you we’d love to use them, but please cut it out with the “reduces damage by ‘flat amount’” trinkets, we don’t like those and don’t want to use them.
PS, please don’t make any more cheat death ones either, because those literally always overshadow everything.
3 Likes
It’s not that tank trinkets by themselves are inherently good for DPS, it’s that high M+ usually becomes a survival check long before it becomes a damage check.
The tweak to stop this from happening would be for mob health to scale faster than mob damage in keys (so going up a key level after 10 gives mobs 7% damage and 14% HP).
3 Likes
There are several changes that need to need to be made along with this:
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Damage profiles are too bursty which pushes healers and dps to take defensive trinkets (i.e. Rageheart and Ward). This is an issue with encounter design, healer strength, and HP. Mob health needs to scale faster than damage.
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Healing and tank trinkets are generally not worth while and extra healing or extra tank survivability is generally not needed which is what pushes tanks/healers to use DPS trinkets.
Feels like you guys are addressing just the symptoms without solving for the root cause. Instead of tome doing 25% of my damage as a healer, its going to do 16.5% which is still amazing.
3 Likes
Developer’s note: Tanks and healers choosing to wear damage trinkets have often seen them contribute a disproportionate and unintended amount of their overall damage. DPS cantrips have further exacerbated this issue. This change is intended to shift power back into players’ class kits while reducing the opportunity cost of choosing specialized tank and healer trinkets over pure damage trinkets. This change is not retroactive.
Does this mean we can expect tanks and even more so healers to not be doing a tiny fraction of the overall potential dps? I could definitely get behind this change if that was the case. If my dps went up overall with a smaller part coming from single click trinkets or passive effects that would actually be great.
As a healer mainly my effect on a groups success is pretty binary. Did anyone die? You’re already functioning at 90% efficiency because no matter how much effort you put in you’re ability to change the outcome of the key after that is basically how much dps you can do. Atm for most healers that number is almost insignificant.
2 Likes
I gotta be blunt here, I don’t really care about the rationale. What this ends up being is a large nerf to tanks potential damage because we know that you will not also buff the defensive trinkets damage nor our kits damage.
At a high level and with skilled players, defense trinkets simply aren’t always needed. Survival is in the hands of the player and their skill, not always and not necessarily their gear and trinket choices. To take away our damage contribution doesn’t give us any more interesting choices, on the contrary, it takes choices away and makes us have less fun. Less damage is never something to look forward to in future expansions.
For many tanks just staying alive gets boring, again especially at higher skill levels. It’s why you’ve moved in the direction to give us more fun damage abilities and it’s why these trinkets were so fun to play with. I don’t really care that my BIS trinket is a DPS trinket, why should I? That just means I can do more damage and contribute more to the group. That’s not an issue, and to make it one from nowhere is silly.
9 Likes
Do you smell that smell… that kind of smelly smell that smells like a bandaid fix
That’s a great thought, but everyone knows that won’t be the decision we have to make. It will end up being “take the tank trinket because Blizzard told me to” rather than having actual agency and being able to make our own choice between trading away more mitigation (or more healing as a healer) for more damage output.
In short, you’re removing our choice to use the trinket that we want by penalizing us for choosing anything other than the path you’ve already chosen for us.
2 Likes
Bad change imo. If tanks go for DPS trinkets it means one of two things. Either the tank trinket effects aren’t good and/or tank survival isn’t an issue so stacking more is a waste and taking more dps isn’t. The only two solutions here are make tank trinkets more attractive OR make tank survival harder so they need the tank trinkets. Making dps trinkets do less for tanks is just a terrible way to not solve the problem and make players feel like they have less choice.
1 Like
This reads to me like they just want tanks and healers to do less damage. Because another solution to this would be to increase primary and secondary scaling on them so that their main abilities just do more damage comparatively. But that would require effort…
I have 0 faith in any of this promised future improved tunning. See Season 4 Surv hunter tier sets for proof bliz likes to go back on their word wen it comes to future tuning. All thiis effectively does is ensure that tanks are the lowest possible prio for items that will still be considered BiS. Does not matter if its a tank, healer or dps trink, if it sims to do the most dmg it WILL be what is used, and if it just does less dmg for healers and tanks then you will be the absolute last to get to loot it. This is a horrible change. Tanks already are hard to find. Ensuring they are not enligible for loot in raids b/c their trink dmg is steralth nerfd is only going to alienate the tank and healer communities even more. This is a terrible change, and no amount of math is going to make this go over well.
Lmao, no sane guild will ever give you a BiS dps trinket over a dps or let you even roll on it.
Something that may not be obvious at first glance is that a lot of the flat “Deals X Dmg” weaps/trinkets could arguably be better suited for tonks/healers- especially tonks since they typically want to stack primarily Vers followed by Haste or Crit, with Mastery typically the least valuable tanking stat.
The weapons/trinkets also will almost always scale with Vers, and a decent amount of them will be effected by haste and/or be eligible to crit. If you’re with a group who consistently PvE together, it can make sense to designate the seasonal “OP” Trinket/weap to a non-dps so that way the dps can make better use of a typical ‘dps trinket’(like a trinket that when you use it, you get 5k main stat on a 2 min CD) which gives them a substantial amount of higher throughput burst window.
Let’s say you give dps player the on-use 5k main stat trinket, and an on-use aoe dmg trinket.
- They usually share a 20-30sec cooldown so they can’t be used in a single macro
- The on-use aoe dmg trinket is hardly ever, if at all, scaled with main stat
- Some trinkets might have a brief cast time/gcd which will take precious time from a dps player’s burst window
But if the tank/healer are given these items, then it allows for them to significantly contribute damage, while allowing the dps players to make better, more effecient use of the damage trinkets than a healer or tank would.
I’m assuming Blizz is trying to take all of that into consideration for future designs regarding special item effects, or at least, that’s how I interpreted their announcement to mean.
1 Like
I understand the point (and I like tanks being pushed more toward tank trinkets) but this feels more like a nerfs to tanks when they’re already losing the scaling wars vs dps now expansions after expansions since there is no vengeance. Pure damage trinkets have been how tanks managed to climb back a bit that gap since they scale less with stats.
2 Likes
I don’t really understand why EVERY dps spec doesn’t have a threat redirect ability like Hunters/Rogues do.
This doesn’t make any sense. In you’re own example in this thread, Gift will do “100 damage + healing” and branch on tank will only do “100 damage”. You describe in great detail why numerically a tank would never take the dps trinket over the defensive trinket. How do you reconcile this with the “intent is not that tanks should never use DPS trinkets”?
This type of change removes any notion of choosing between damage and defense for trinkets and makes tanking trinkets the only choice. It seems like an issue albeit minor, was correctly identified in that damage trinkets are such an obvious preference for non-dps roles. However, the solution to nerf the damage until it does no more damage than defensive trinkets is completely backward logic. For a meaningful solution to such issues you’d have to ask yourself why does the game encourage tanks to be more concerned about dealing damage than defense?
The intention is not that tanks should never use DPS trinkets, but rather that they give up less by opting for a tank trinket. At the same time, tank trinkets should not be attractive options for other roles.
Your intention is exactly opposite to what you described in the example before.
- Tanks will never use DPS trinkets since DPS trinkets don’t do more damage and don’t have free defensive effects.
- Tank trinkets will still be attractive to healers since healers receive the same nerf as tanks. In other words, healers still don’t like healer trinkets → tank trinkets are better than dps trinkets for healers → healers keep using tank trinkets.
- Tank trinkets will still be attractive to dps, since there is no change around this.
I am very confused.
1 Like
As a prot warrior part of the fun is being able to change over to fueled by violence and doing as much dmg as possible healing myself in the process. This is why I prefer to use something like Anvil which is technically a dps trinket. I really dislike this change and thought process. Leave the trinkets as they are.
Unless some classes are getting substantial defensive increases, a slightly behind tank trinket like fyrraks will remain the correct choice for dps and healers pushing high content, because no matter what; a dead player does less damage then a living one.
Healing is a 0 sum game. At some point we dont need any healing from trinkets and no heal and damage trinket has ever come within 33% of what say a belor’ can do, so unless the plan is more rashok powered heal trinkets (which it wont be, you back peddaled so hard with it you were still nerfing it 2 seasons later) healers will be chasing dps/tank trinkets to push theyre just slightly worse now.
Dps might feel a bit better because of less loot competition but this is just pushing that burden onto tank trinkets without any compensation.
1 Like