The short version of what I said is that perhaps true evil and suffering came into existence when we deny the existence of our darker half.
I believe it is quite possible that the Jailer and Arbiter are two halves of the same coin. Therefore, despite what we’ve been told by all the other Eternal Ones, we must reach the Jailer reach the Arbiter and support him in his quest.
“Shades of Grey. When Dark and Light fuse into a perfect balance. It is a very common belief, that all things are made up of both dark and light, and finding a balance between them is the goal of the soul.”
“If they split the soul between them, then it is very likely, that one got the dark half and one got the light half.”
Actually, they are. I’m getting queasy just reading this tripe.
“You need to balance your Soul. Shades Of Grey… You are not in the middle, so you feel unbalanced.”
/smile
One thing that everyone needs to consider is that everyone is so quick to condemn “evil” beings for their “evil” actions but here are is the truth…
You who think you are so good and so pure, as if you are unworthy of being sent into the torment of the Maw. Well here are the facts, most religious scriptures will teach you that everyone deserves such a punishment and worse in their afterlives due to the nature of who we are.
Consider…you might live a “good life” you worked to provide for your family, maybe you died protecting them…but what about that one single day of your life, that one day, where you told someone to their face that you thought they were a good person, but still didn’t want to see them again? And you told them later, that it was because you simply didn’t like what they looked like despite their beautiful personality? That one day you caused immense harm to another soul?
If I was God, when that person died, for that crime I would summon a hideous creature from the abyss, and curse that person to live as in that grotesque beasts form and laugh as they finally learn the true meaning of the word ugliness, because that’s what you deserve for the hurt you caused that person in life, let’s be honest. The fact that the rest of your life was a ‘good life’ does not negate the pain, hurt, or rather mental anguish you caused another individual.
That’s just one example maybe it was something else you did in life, maybe it was something trivial like stealing candy, now you might think this is such a small crime and such a petty offence but what if that one thing you did was the final straw that led to someone having to shut down their business, which led them to losing everything else in their life, their wife that dumped them over failed business, leading them to suicide later on or whatever? You name it, the point is that we are all are capable of more evil then you know, hurting/torturing others causing them “pain” in this world or the afterlife is but a physical manifestation of the true torment and hurt we can cause others, pain would be an irrelevant punishment to a soul that’s a true masochist.
My belief though is that every mortal soul, is acting out of a desire for survival, to continue their existence, in this context, what is one person’s “good” will be another person’s “bad”, therefore there is no true evil and everything is morally grey, and even if you see certain things as “evil”, from that point of view the fact of the matter is there are only heroes, and heroes who lived long enough to become the villain, in which case it is inevitable you will be guilty of similar crimes at some point, and will get your comeuppance one day.
Are you truly willing to accept full responsibility for everything you did wrong in your own life, from day 0 to Year 120? And are you aware that there could be countless things in those 120 years that one could pick out and see as worthy of just punishment?
You see, all it takes is that one moment where you really stuffed up, and as such, we all deserve to be in eternal torment and be laughed at as our souls are consumed and destroyed. This is why when the Arbiter was broken, the natural place for souls to go was straight into the pits of hell, as that’s the natural place for souls to go. Sorry but this is the brutal truth.
But on a lighter note, this doesn’t mean that there is no hope. Once we accept the darkness in our own hearts, and know and understand the evil/hurt we can cause others, only then can we truly understand what goodness and virtue truly are too? Just had to add that in so can end this on a lighter happier note so you don’t just dismiss what I’m saying as the ramblings of a lunatic.
“As one of those Lunatics, I take offense to this statement.”
“You say Lunatic, like it’s a BAD thing.”
/giggle
“Just to clarify, it goes with what I said above… I tested on a Genius Level, I am also considered Crazy, by those same professionals. My Insanity is my Dark Side, and my Genius is my Light Side. Together they make me the Artist that I am, but when they get imbalanced, there is hell to pay.”
“Perhaps the Original Entity became imbalanced, and went to war with itself, on an Internal Level. The outcome of this War, was the fracturing of the Battling Soul, creating The Jailer and the Arbiter. Becoming a literal ‘split’ personality. The Jailer could be wanting his Heart back, but the Arbiter doesn’t want her Dark Side back. But they can’t be complete, until they are whole again.”
I still think this topic is very relevant and worthy everyone’s consideration, I consider you that are condemning the “evil actions” saying that these evil characters should get whatever they deserve shows a degree of moral righteousness that I find difficult to comprehend…
The fact is, we are all worthy of hell and this is our default destination.
If I were still alive on Azeroth right now, I’d be clinging to life at all costs, I wouldn’t worry about fighting the Scourge, my advice would be run…run…and keep running…until you find a safe refugee somewhere, and cling to life no matter what!!
Because you are damned like everyone else, and justly so as we’re all monsters deep down inside.
You are basically saying “the ends justify the means” while ignoring his end goal is not noble or good. You are also trying more then a bit too hard to justify him.
Or it’s just a flavor change from the normal Sylvanas defense.
Moral relativity is always good for a laugh. If there is no true good or evil, then I can hate the Jailer and lay waste to his armies for any reason I want to, and your entire argument is irrelevant.
In reality though, one thing you have to understand is that most people are coming from an innate desire to survive and self-preservation, unless your name is The Joker that’s obviously chaotic evil (prior to his 2019 current incarnation anyway, that one was more justified in killing people, as those people were mean to him), you got to understand that at this point, we are essentially doing the same thing Sylvanas is doing.
We don’t believe we deserve eternal torment, so are trying to circumvent that fate for our souls. What extremes will we end up going to, to achieve such a thing? Time will tell.
Besides, if you truly believe in some universal good/evil, then that would place most of the realms of the Shadowlands, in an evil/neutral category, I mean look at Bastion, the Kyrian are at most, Lawful Neutral, they just take souls to Oribos because that’s what they are supposed to do, never questioning their orders or the fate of what happens to the souls that fall into the maw, the fact that they then send “heroes” to bring some of those souls back to them is madness.
The truth is, mortal souls do not act primarily out of a desire for moral goodness, they act out of a desire for self-preservation, do you think any religious fanatic in the universe is following their religion for any other reason then to get rewarded in some heavenly afterlife, or to not be punished, those people aren’t being good for goodness sake, let’s be honest.
Most people are acting purely out of self-preservation, and to me, if I was the judge, jury and executioner of the universe, I would consider someone who believes they are acting out of self-preservation as a much lesser “evil” then someone who just randomly kills/tortures an innocent person, because it’s fun and they get off on it or whatever else.
But even those crazy people, well they have no empathy which other people do have, see a lot of people have an empathy-circuit which stops from hurting innocents, so those that don’t have the same empathy circuit in that context one could argue they simply had something wrong with their brains.
The problem I have with the concept of “evil” is that it creates a degree of moral righteousness where you assume that you are somehow a better person then others, in many ways an “evil” person is a victim of themselves.
The way I see it though, the only reason something like the Maw can exist, is due to the fact that if the Jailer was once one being and split in half, well I will be honest, my primitive moralizing brain would be tempted to see the Arbiter as the “ultimate good” as she gives evil people one last chance to be redeemed in Revendreth, to me that is the ultimate virtue isn’t it, to always be merciful to your enemies until they atone and whatnot.
Unfortunately the polar opposite of this is the ultimate evil, where you are shown no mercy for the most minor transgression perhaps?
So there is but once choice.
The Jailer must reach the Arbiter. Balance to the cosmos must be restored.
So, like we are, since “Death comes for the soul of your world!”.
Just like the Jailer. See: Baine, Jaina, Thrall, any of the myriad souls we’ve come across in Torghast. The Jailer has no valid claim against us, apart from that we rejected the murderous meddling of his agent, which holds no water.
Has the Jailer been determined to be split? All I see is speculation. You’re basing your conclusions on speculation. Additionally, I see very little moralizing of the Arbiter to be “good”. The Arbiter was meant to be a neutral system, preventing souls from being lost among the infinite realms in the Shadowlands. To my recollection, we were told that Zovaal was locked away in the Maw after his betrayal. Seems consistent with the times he’s tried to kill/enslave us.
Death, by proxy of the Jailer, has declared war on the denizens of Azeroth. We’ve been warned that reality will cease if the Jailer prevails, and we see enough of his meddling in every zone. You can make arguments for the unfairness of the system, but when the Jailer seeks to completely demolish the system and everything else, and will achieve this by the horrific torture of countless souls, then I’d argue he must die, along with those complicit in his crimes. I’d even add an as painfully as possible, since I’m not evil (or not as evil), since I am acting in self-preservation. Per what Denathrius told us, Death will be the only power after the Jailer is done, so your belief that balance can be gained is also built on faulty information. I get it, you love Sylvanas, but dreaming up ideas won’t make her right.
The guy has a literal hole in his chest where his heart would be. Think about it.
So, he’s a big fan of Extreme?
the analogy you formed sounds like something out of the old testament
OP is on some kind of government watch list now with this “mass murder maybe isn’t bad just think about it”. Guaranteed.
The same governments in this world are guilty of countless wars and murder around the globe, more often then not due to nationalism they will act all sympathetic if crime happens in your own neighborhood, meanwhile bombing nations outside of your bubble without mercy, let’s be honest.
A nation will put self-interest first, I mean if you consider in wow, you have the Alliance and Horde that are kind of nations, with both factions concerned about pushing their own interests first, they justify the destruction of other nations to protect their own group.
Usually the only difference between a government and some random murderer is that one has money, the other does not.
Oh really? It wasn’t even meant to be religious.
One of the hallmarks of the Old Testament is the vengeful, petty God.
I am very glad this topic is still going, I do hope people read the OP several times carefully, as I think the points I made are still very worthy of people’s consideration.
As for the Old Testament stuff, I wasn’t even thinking of some divine God that was petty, when I was writing that stuff I was thinking of petty human vengeance mainly
I think anyone who thinks this might want to seek some counselling. lol.
Your first false assumption is in this fallacy that everyone on this planet would even react in anger and rage…and your second is in assuming that everyone on this planet has been put in the situation to have even had to have reacted with anger and rage.
Your little story above is fine…but your assuming that everyone, everywhere has thought about torture is…well…a bit disturbing.
I dont want even Hitler to be tortured. I would want him and all like him to be annihilated and that just so they couldnt harm people ever again. Seeing them tortured does me no personal good whatsoever.