The horde doesn't need a devastating defeat

Lore Story Forum
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Etheldald posted this thread which has gained a lot of attention, but I wanted to point out one particular post as a follow up because I don’t think people are seeing in or reading around 230 or mosts and missing it:

Also, someone changed their mind on the internet. Surely we are in the end times.

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Excuse you! You cannot expect me to actually read more than 3 posts before i begin my rantings. Have some compassion in the future please.

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I’ll be satisfied if Tyrande calls down the Wrath of Elune and one member of the Horde dies (indiscriminately) for every life lost in Teldrassil. Children are NOT exempted from this divine retribution since nelf and worgen children weren’t spared the burning. Members of every race in the Horde die. Let’s have the Horde PC go around collecting bodies from weeping family members and friends.

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How is the Alliance supposed to win if the Horde doesn’t lose? This makes no sense.
If all it takes is a “cool” cinematic we had terror of darkshore and we all saw what happened.

Nathanos and Horde PC turn NEs to their side and get away while we get to kill a Valkyr in one of the worst scripted events in wow.
slow clap

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I think the question should be explored further: How does either playable faction win in a meaningful manner, without alienating the other portion of the player base?

Not that I don’t want retribution for NE, but it’s honestly a failed set-up for both sides.

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I want THIS! In addition I think Orgrimmar must be demolished and a druidic grove gown over its remains, complete with whisps and a moonwell.

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Eh… pretty sure the idea here is to not make the Horde lose any territory. Besides, Orgrimmar is desert land. Not great for a Grove. Maybe have Elune’s Retribution kill all the raised Nelves as well. Toss in the Val’kyr for icing on the cake.

Or if we want to be really pretty, have this Elune-based Divine Retribution shrivel Nathanos’ body back to looking like a run-of-the-mill Forsaken, complete with losing strength/power.

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I’m a dedicated Night Elf fan and I don’t like the Horde, but I agree that devastating revenge isn’t really necessary. There is no reason to hurt the experience of Horde players by destroying their cities or killing their major heroes.

What I think would be appropriate would be a clear, decisive blow from the Night Elves that feels like a significant victory. Not a bittersweet partial victory. Not bumbling into some sneaky Sylvanas trap only to barely escape. The Night Elves need to set out on some goal (killing Nathanos and/or the val’kyr sounds good), beat the odds and succeed, and then see that they have significantly damaged Sylvanas’ plans. A scene of her raging about how Tyrande and the Night Elves are screwing up her plots would be nice.

After that, I think it will be time to move on from revenge. After the victory, Tyrande could have an opportunity to massacre Forsaken civilians or something but ultimately decide against it. Seeing to the future of her own people is more important. Then there can be a fancy CG cinematic where the Night Elves work on building a new home. Maybe Tyrande sacrifices the power of the Night Warrior to start a new World Tree. Things end on a hopeful note and we can move on from the burning of teldrassil.

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Feeling personally attacked right now.

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Yeah I know. But it’s only fair.

They did in Desolace. Maybe just a tall tree as a symbol of victory lol.

I like this. I just don’t see how anything other than a massive hit to the Horde can be a total and complete victory for the elves because just killing Nathanos isn’t cutting it.

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I’m still in favor of the Elune goes 12 Plagues of Egypt on the Horde as Revenge for Teldrassil. Heck, instead of one big thing, make it an actual 12 Plagues. Each week the Horde players can deal with the repercussions of a new plague, trying to save the civilians of the Horde. Pests devouring their food, leylines moving to deprive elves of magic, the Sunwell going dark for a week and returning the addiction to a crippling level for the belves, Forsaken regaining a sense of their lost humanity and feeling the horror of all they’ve done during the war…

If BFA ended with Elune basically teaching the Horde a VERY hard lesson by putting it through suffering likes it’s never experienced before, but all Horde cities and leaders come out in-tact, I think that’d not only cement the Alliance as a credible threat in the future, but open up enough wounds for the Horde to finally do enough soul searching to stop.

As an after-thought, might even be a credible way to end the war, as I could see Anduin and Jaina and the likes trying to help the Horde through it. Tyrande turns on the plagues and it’s too late to stop them. She and other Alliance leaders sit back and watch, of course, but there would be some out there trying to alleviate the suffering.

Talking about internal conflict in the Alliance. Maybe Alliance players can get some agency for a change. Help Anduin and Jaina tend to the ailing Horde, or help Tyrande spread a little bit more misery, maybe gathering heads to toss into a dark moonwell.

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Thats pretty much what would make the Horde players sad.
They are even opposed to joining the honor horde and take down Sylvanas sympathizers.
Traitors, Alliance bootlickers, and whatever else you could imagine.

On one hand they keep saying they want to be heroes but don’t want to do anything heroic. Not to mention in the game all their “evil” actions are completely ignored. On the Horde side I think I only heard Teldrassil mentioned only ONCE by Lorthemar and even then it was not much to speak about.

The situation is nowhere near as bad as they describe it. Their only legitimate complaint is in some expansions like Legion (the very last patch) their lore is just not relevant.
Well Blizzard fixed that by giving them Night Elves… uh i mean Nightborne.

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But don’t you know that killing Rastakhan - someone entirely uninvolved with Teldrassil’s burning - was revenge?

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Elune seems far more New Testament than Old Testament. Elune forgives everyone, even the worst of monsters (Satyr, Twlight’s Hammer cultists) if you just repent enough:

There are two Satyr are reverted back to Night Elves in game. One was Priestess Driana in Azsuna, who was a ghost Satyr, and was reverted into a ghost Night Elf, and she rejoined the Court of Farondis. The other, more obvious and prominent one, is Avrus Illwhisper in Ashenvale that tears his own heart out to cure a dying Night Elf and he does become a Night Elf again, Avrus the Redeemed, by Elune’s will.

We also see this with Zamael Lunthistle’s ghost in the Searing Gorge, who joined the Twilight’s Hammer, but repented to Elune, and his soul was forgiven by Elune.

This is a strange story trope that a lot of media has accustomed us to. This moral paradigm that doesn’t work on a “scale of deeds” system but is rather simply having an all-forgiving god that will accept any repentance as long as it’s sincere enough.

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Elune forgives the Night Elves when they stray from the Path. Quests in Desolace, on the other hand, show she enjoys her pound of flesh from the enemies of her children.

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I can totally see a Horde city being razed. Why the focus on Orgrimmar though? Undercity’s already gone. Silvermoon City is right there. Bilgewater Harbor and the Echo Isles would also probably be easier to hit. It also looks like bad things are about to happen to Thunderbluff.

I simply point this out because I think wiping any of those cities off the map would be more feasible from a gameplay and developer’s perspective. Wipe out Orgrimmar and now they have to go through the trouble of giving the Horde a brand new capital, or simply rebuild it like they did after Deathwing’s attack…

Actually. Yeah! Let’s get a new Orgrimmar! It could use an update.

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Part of me agrees, part of me cringes and wonders how they’ll shoehorn in even worse elevators we’ll be forced to use at least while leveling

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That was not our revenge. That was part if the war effort and the plan wasn’t too kill him but to get him to surrender. Like Shaw said, at least Zandalar still stands. The same can’t be said for Teldrassil. The Elves lost a home and thousands of innocents. Dazar Alor is in no way our revenge, not to mention more elves died in the decoy mission.

I don’t remember this, I’ll have to go do that quest.

I’m fairly certain that Alleria would have some issues with that.

I’m sick of this complaint from the horde side. The fact is after Darnassus in order for the Night Elves to get justice they have to take a major hit. Then they complain about how that would affect the horde players. What about the Night Elf players?!?! We just lost Teldrassil and thousands of civilians. Our lands are in a warfront stalemate and we’ve got Sylvanas raising the dead to her side. They want to be heroes but also want to get off easy. So basically we have to take another hit just to soothe their ego’s. Annoying.:roll_eyes::roll_eyes:

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Of course it wasn’t, and it was ridiculous for anyone to ever imply that seriously.

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Whoops, I completely missed the sarcasm on that one. :man_facepalming::man_facepalming::rofl::rofl::rofl:

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