The horde needs a devastating defeat

Lore Story Forum
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Greetings, so first of all i know that this will potentially upset horde players but honestly, i am sorry, i am sure that you guys have your own problems already. and you are probably right in saying that you guys don’t deserve this. because it was the writters who created this problem in the first place.

With that being said, that doesn’t mean that i will abandon my desire to have a satisfactory conclusion for the story that we are currently, and that is, teldrassil.
i was promised with vengeance. i was promised to have some payback.
And no blizz, i cannot accept your peace even coming from the character that i care the most (jaina) i feel like her story was some sort of payoff for theramore, because if that didn’t happened, she wouln’t had a story in kultiras in the first place (that i enjoyed a lot), so for that, i am satisfied with that story, finally.
and true, i was super salty already that we didn’t even get the killing blow on garrosh but i feel like finally, after all these years, we gained something from that

But here is the thing.
"if your horde fails honor again, WE WILL END YOU"
This is what varian told voljin, not only they failed at that, but they did a theramore, but worse and to a playable faction no less.

all what the alliance has been doing since cata mop and bfa has been losing.
Soutshore,gilneas,theramore,teldrassil. we got some devastating defeats humilliating our characters and only reacting to the villains
we weren’t even allowed to have our own story (hello robot cat and 4 cgi cinematics of the horde)

we were also told that if voljin didn’t rebelled garrosh would have won. Wow blizz, thanks for making us the most useless faction ever,but even despite of all that, i resisted and continued to play alliance because i truly love their characters,cities,races ect,and i could never enjoy the horde story but i respect those who do.

Lets talk a little about our supposed “victories” our victory at orgrimmar, the damn capital of the enemy meaning nothing more that getting rid of a threat, we gained nothing for losing theramore, at that moment we gained dala but look, khadgar is back,is super neutral and now dala is.

There have been multiple instances of characters holding back, like jaina not destroying orgrimmar, honestly if she had done that i bet that many of us we wouln’t be so angry but their plot armor saved them (and i am not saying that the same plot armor didn’t protected alliance either)

we have the stupid attack of lordaeron, we were rob with any sort of agency because we did exactly what the villain was expecting while laughing at our faces. and we were only saved by literal deus ex machimas (when there was NO need for that).
“you gained nothing” well said sylvi, i feel like this exemplifies exactly what blizzard thinks about the alliance.

we then had all this clown fiesta attacking dazarlazor, we needed a suicide squad to even have a chance,we could not even burn the entire city for some stupid moral holding us back, we had to get the hell out before they killed us all and while defeating in combat 2 of our leaders.
What we gained from the attack ? nothing, because the next patchs we lost our entire fleet to a third party (or sylvanas playing 70d chess?)
only to give zandalaris to the horde and a raid tier while we have to fight out damn leaders.aren’t raid bosses supposed to give you a reason to fight them?

now going back to my original point, we were told that tyrande “got her revenge” while locked in a permanent limbo, nathanos mocked her and escaped like it was nothing and raising 2 nelfs characters to the horde. now tell me. why we aren’t allowed to be anrgy after all these constant insults to the alliance players? it doesn’t help either how some horde players love to mock us, i mean, can i blame them? we were turned into a joke faction,a punching bag while we get constantly humilliated by both devs and players.

Why we aren’t allowed to be angry? why we aren’t allowd to have revenge on the horde? just because they are a playable faction? Screw that.
The legion killed varian, what we did to them? we dismantled them completely.

i am FINE with anduin/jaina wanting some peace, whatever, it makes sense for their characters, i am NOT fine with forgetting about tyrande or all the other characters who DESERVE justice.

We need tyrande to bring conflict to the alliance, say what she think as a different CHARACTER now just randomly agreeing with peace. because “We HaVE To OR We DiE”

We also need to be ones, for once JUST ONCE to defeat the horde in the same way they have done multiple times, to not feel like we are just the secondary characters in a horde story.

i also think, that when is not faction war, the story about some alliance characters are pretty solid, (see, legion)

but i don’t want to feel like a damn masochist for playing alliance and i don’t want to go play some other games, and much less i want to go play horde but if this trend continues, i am sorry but we will have no choice than to leave until there is no one left playing alliance (like is currently happening now but thats another story)

those are just some of the many problems that we currently have in our story, i am not even speaking of the high king nonsense,the lack of conflict or any deep or how we were screwed in the AR deparment (void elves out of nowhere to silence the helfs, but it didn’t work)

that is why i think, that what we need is to strike directly into the horde heart. something that teach them the price of their constant destruction of cities.
i want to be proud of playing alliance and not just a secondary character seeing how they get all these fully rendered cinematics.

Thank you all for reading.

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The only purpose of inflicting such a thing on the Horde would be if we need to give the Horde a reason to hate/fear the Alliance.

This is one of the long standing points made. The Horde does something huge and flashy, with a massive death toll, and/or by terrible methods. Blight, manabombs, burning down Teldrassil with catapults. Suddenly, for at least an xpac, the Alliance has a significant casus belli, and their actions for sometime thereafter are at least arguably often justified by this.

The Horde, on the other hand, is confronted by an Alliance who’s most commonly stated equivalents come from said responses, and are nearly without fail of smaller scale and scope than the Horde’s original act.

The suggestion merely flips the script. Major atrocity, which, if the moral superiority of the victim is maintained, is followed by responses which are not as emotionally satisfying as the initial act was emotionally taxing (hyperbole there, but you get the idea).

So honestly, at this point in particular, I disagree. We don’t need to kick over any more lanterns in the hay barn that our lore has become. Let this Sylvanas arc play itself out, and extinguish the perpetual war. I’m certain, not having to spend time and effort writing competing factions in a war to have story lines that are conflicting but satisfying to fans of both factions, that Blizz could instead write a better, more detailed, overall shared story.

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Not to be that guy, but I’m pretty sure a, “Devastating Defeat,” of any kind would be the end of the Horde outright. I know for the sake of game mechanics and story the Horde is portrayed as fairly equal to the Alliance, but reading between the lines, the Horde has always been hanging on by a thread in just about every conceivable way.

Population? The entirety of the Orcs were sent to Kalimdor on a handful of boats during WC3. These boats even had room for the entire Darkspear tribe, which was described as bordering on extinction. The Tauren were scattered tribes being wiped out by Centaur and Quilboar. Even united they’re not likely to be much more populous than the Orcs. The Forsaken were made up of what Scourge had managed to break free of the Lich King’s control. The Blood Elves were the survivors of a devastated Kingdom (and subsequently endured a civil war with their Prince), the Goblins are a single cartel from a single boat…

Technology? The Horde has been depending upon Goblin technology, which has a 90% chance of exploding at the slightest provocation, and a 10% chance of exploding for no reason at all. Goblins cut corners to maximize profits all the time as well.

Resources? The Orcs settled in a barren wasteland, the Tauren are in grass plains, the Darkspear Trolls have a handful of islands, the lands of the Forsaken are entirely blighted, most of the belf lands are in similar shape, and the Goblins polluted and stripe-mined Azshara.

The Horde has never been the Alliance’s equal in any of these ways, and it’s never made sense that the Horde has been able to stand as an equal to the Alliance. That’s why the Alliance apparently had to consider everything in Cataclysm as not being a war, and why the war didn’t start until Theramore was destroyed.

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Well, instead of trying to tear the Horde down, why not go for the other way to bring about faction pride?

Let’s just build the Alliance back up again.

Return Dalaran to the Alliance, for starters. It’s not very pleasant that a single Son of Lothar is sitting out this war, for one thing, but after getting Dalaran back, losing it again was just in poor taste. The Horde has two magical kingdoms. Let the Alliance have it’s one.

Stromgarde was rebuilt and I don’t think I’ve ever seen a single Alliance player unhappy about it.

Rebuild Gilneas. Give the nelves a new home with such glorious assets that even nelf players think it was worth losing Teldrassil for, and compound that with nelves acting like nelves again. Next threat we face, they need to kick butt, take names, and keep the Horde in line with a little bloodshed for good measure.

After that, give the Alliance some Allied Races they’ve actually wanted. I want my Wildhammer Dwarves, dangit! If we’re getting Dalaran back, add in the helves already. Or even half-elves, I’m sure that crowd would be satisfied with half-elves. Krokul from Argus would be great too. Give the velves some void-infested friends to hang out with.

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Not that I’m opposed to the concept outright, but I do wonder what exactly would be involved in such a defeat. The loss of a capital city, and on a story level a certain segment of our population … sure I guess. It symbolizes a massive defeat, but it does not cripple our future storytelling potential THAT much (outside of reinforcing the ABSURD power-fantasy of the Alliance; seriously I will NEVER forgive Blizz for forcing us to again be the antagonists in a war we are constantly told we could NEVER win without the Alliance being severely handicapped). On the other hand, does this defeat include a loss of characters? And if so … how many, and which ones?

  • Sylvanas? Well I will grant you her (the Horde WILL lose her for sure).
  • Gallywix? He is a war profiteer, and Blizz is currently building up a potential replacement.
  • Nathanos? Depending on how the story unfolds I could see it, but killing him AND Sylvanas would render the Forsaken with no means of getting their territories back (and with no land or leaders, their racial fantasy would be just unrepairable at that point; for the sake of Alliance vengeance). They’d be a dead PC race, never to be relevant again.
  • Saurfang? Also COULD see it, but with Thrall’s future participation exclusively driven by Metzen’s willingness to VA him regularly, it might render the Orcs of Durotar in a similar position (not as bad, but similar) to the Forsaken and Darkspear (with only Eitrigg to be their representation).

Even Blizzard wasn’t stupid enough the kill off a swath of Alliance characters in this conflict, because they know with they write stories the ONLY way that a Faction or PC race will continue to find relevance in future ones is by having strong representation. You simply NEED them, or like the Darkspear you wil find yourself with no stories to relate to. To date, the most important character the Alliance has lost in this war is Blademaster Telaaamon for the Lightforged. Outside of that its been a pair of C-List NEs (a dime a dozen Warden WC giver; and a character created to live and die in a single book to hammer home Sylvie/Arthas parallels).

Finally, and here is the BIGGEST question. Lets assume that the Alliance Faction DOES get the vengeance you desire; and the Horde suffers a MASSIVE defeat at their hands. You got your satisfaction. Are you the Alliance players then willing to take a back seat while Blizzard takes the MASSIVE amount of time and resources they would NEED to build up what they broke for that satisfaction to be obtained? While they rebuild a Horde from near scratch? Or, will you scream more “HORDE BIAS”, despite our faction being potentially irreparably damaged for that satisfaction (and getting dragged through the ringer in this story)? My guess … the latter in spades.

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pretty much. like, i am sure that would leave storytelling potential, maybe this time the horde will be the one forced to forgive the alliance for the GreaTeR GoOD

i don’t think that killing characters is a good solution but tyrande definectly should get at least a killing blow on either sylvanas or nathanos. there are other forsaken characters.
and to be fair, sylvanas and nathanos can be resurrected.

i don’t really mind that they get their own story as long as the alliance have their own and we aren’t involved on it, like i don’t even want to see a horde NPC ever again, i am sure that many horde players feel the same with many if not all alliance characters.

you know what? that sounds good, but i don’t want that after geya’rah or whoever takes the warchief seat again do the same and we dance the same dance.
while everyone collectively facepalm. ENOUGH. it would be nice also if they stop making everything alliane related neutral.
dalaran has a statue of rhonin,killed by the horde and who saved jaina, and yet we had horde everywhere in the damn city.

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But they already have to rebuild the horde from scratch. The very fact that this is the second expansion that explores the horde’s soul, coupled with massive player backlash over the fact that all they found in it were genocidal monsters(again), means that blizzard has no idea what’s going on anyway.

Let the Alliance have a single satisfying victory at least.

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They haven’t done this for The Alliance in any of it’s losses suffered to the Horde. Why does the horde get it for the supposed single loss it will suffer to The Alliance?

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Well if they can leave stormwind a ruin for several expansions then no.
The most they get is a bronze dragon with time reversal.

Because it is the natural response. You would think so but clearly somebody hasn’t played Alliance or appreciated the perspective so they are naturally confused.

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Every time something like this thread is proposed Horde players say it wouldn’t be fair to do something like that to the entire Horde playerbase, ignoring the fact that it’s happened no less than 3 times already to the entire Alliance playerbase.

Yet they still rattle of that excuse as if it hold any weight anymore. It’s not that Blizzard wouldn’t do that to a player faction, it’s just that they wouldn’t and never have done it to ONE SINGLE faction. The Horde.

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And I got my answer … the answer is no. The majority of the Alliance players would not be willing to allow the time and resources necessary to rebuild what Blizz broke for them to get the satisfaction they desire. Pretty much, we need to reinforce our obscene power fantasy; the Horde Faction needs to be punished; and the Horde Playerbase can suck it if all they get to look forward to in the future is more Legion style stories. They chose the wrong faction 15 years ago, its their fault Blizz villain batted them again … when they knew damned well they hadn’t addressed the MASSIVE power imbalance AND the faction was already stretched for characters as it was.

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We just want you to have the full Alliance experience!

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No you didn’t get your answer. Honestly yes, I would allow it. But I would ask that equal time and resources be put into the necessary rebuilding of what Blizz broke in at least one single, not even all just one, defeat the horde has delivered unto the Alliance. but that hasn’t happened yet and you and I both know it never will.

Would you be okay with the time and resources necessary to do that for The Alliance? For all 3 times, or just one? Which one?

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From what Droite has posted previously they would be open to it I am sure but we all know Blizzard never will.
If Bronze dragon fix is present.

And there will never be a satisfaction of Alliance, you, your faction, having anything to do with this supposed retribution.

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They do need a massive loss. The scale myst be balanced. Anduin and Jaina’s growing pacifism is annoying. The horde must pay. How you ask, I have an idea.

If Thrall is correct and Sylvanas sends her troops to hit Thunderbluff, I say we let it happen. Let Sylvanas assault and destroy the city and while she and her forces are destroying Thunderbluff the Alliance assaults Orgimmar. 2 city’s gone for the price of one.

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Thats what any military would do.
At best it divides the Horde forces even further and a great flanking manoeuvre on Sylvanas’s forces.

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Lets be honest, every expansion with a strong Horde focus has sucked storywise and even the Horde doesn’t deny that. Every expansion where they claim the Alliance gets all the love, people generally like. Legion, Wrath, MoP…

Maybe the Devs just can’t write the Horde a decent story, and need to stop trying before we explore the, “Soul of the Horde,” for the umpteenth time and all that’s time of the Alliance is Goldshire.

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Pretty much. Blizzard hasn’t bothered to build up the Horde since Cataclysm. “Underdog faction,” bro. Thats why the Alliance gets to lose a city per expansion, and when the Horde loses anything, its watered down and never at the Alliance’s hand.

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What major defeats? Southshore? Theramore? Teldrassil? As far as I’m aware the ONLY one of those three that would merit a large amount of resources and time is the last, because YES the NEs need to be rebuilt from a more fundamental and symbolic level (in more ways than just territory reclamation like the majority of the Alliance would need).

Because, outside of them … yes, it would just be stories about reclaiming and rebuilding territories on EK (or are the Alliance Players forgetting that outside of some fringe Horde forces remaining in the area; they’ve effectively taken: Arathi; Hillsbrad; Alterac; Silverpine; Gilneas; Tirisfal; Western Plaguelands; and Eastern Plaguelands (and probably Tol Barad).

On the other hand, depending on how many Horde characters the Alliance faction demands from the Horde; and how much of the NE territory gets returned (I’d guess ALL of it) … you’re facing not ONE rebuilding of a race culturally and territoriality (you’re facing upwards to THREE, one of which might be destroyed for all narrative purposes with no real chance for repair). Yeah … the Horde Faction would require FAR more resources than the Alliance to be rebuilt.

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I thought about making a quick post bemoaning how quick we went from topic to flaming ruin, making sweeping generalizations about segments of the player base, but then I re-read the thread title, and remembered this particular topic started about here:

Since, if I’m honest, that’s basically why I made this response at all, I’ll just take a moment to reiterate that the only reason to do something like this is if you want a narrative reason for the Horde to seek bloody revenge on the Alliance, have it be justified, and given how things have been treated in the past? Probably spend an xpac getting the ever loving crap kicked out of the Alliance.

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