The crusade against Raiders has to stop

Community General Discussion
144

If you ran a burger joint and needed to create more business would you add more burgers to the menu or add hot dogs?

Your examples are faulty because in all those situations only the baddest of the baddies didn’t just roll up their sleeves and get it done(or i suppose if you had some “principled stance” you could jut ignore the achievement). Yes every children’s week there will be “wahh I just play for transmogs” and they will be followed with “you know, I hate PVP but it took me like 3 tries, just suck it up”

But it’s an achievement. Again…an ACHIEVEMENT. Not a handout. Not a pay to get. Not a participation trophy. It’s specifically set aside to say …“good job, you did it”

You know who’s business model wins in that situation? Blizzards.

Terrible design would be separate tracks for PVP, PVE Hardcore, PVE casual, Solo only, Pet battlers, roleplayers, transmog hunters, achievement hunters, barber shop fans, WPVP, instanced pvp and bank dancers.

If you isolated all those communites you have nothing but a fragmented game. The game is barely hanging by a thread at this point as is.

It’s not only a good answer, it’s the only answer. Your specific fantasy of a game designed purely to meet your needs would bomb abysmally. So would a game only catering to mine.

145

Percentages come from achievement scraping sites. For example WoW Rarity. You can see what percentage have certain achievements, mounts, pets etc.

Itll show you some things that are ACTUALLY tiny minority, like people who do lots of pet battles, Mythic raid, or even worse, get titles from arena each season.

146

I was pretty sure mythics invalidated their own dungeon content.

1 Like
147

Does emissary gear go all the way up to, say, the 425 drops out of a mythic +9? Honestly asking, I don’t always pay attention to my WQs.

148

And now you have. Not saying Op is completely right, but as someone on these forums frequently, there is very much an us vs them mentality on the topic

1 Like
149

Do you see me hating on the undead?

153

This is a myth perpetuated by a very small vocal minority. They claim that there was this huge segment of players that didn’t raid because of “reasons” prior to LFR. This is an out right lie. A lot of the player base from Wrath down to Vanilla raided.

The entire " Only 1% got to see Naxx" is a lame excuse and not well understood. I don’t think people get that Naxx was only available as current content for 6 months and there were no catch up mechanics back then.

There were a lot of guilds still on AQ40, BWL and even MC for that matter. So a lot were raiding then, it just not enough had the gear to succeed in Naxx. It was a timing and lack of catch ups that doomed Vanilla Naxx.

I also think Blizzard cherry picked this one example too. How come LFR didn’t make it’s way into the game in TBC or Wrath? If raid participation was bad then, LFR would have come sooner.

The reality is, LFR was oh crap move for Blizzard, because Cata was not a well received expansion and it bled away a lot of the 12 million subs they had in Wrath.

Bottom line, I hate to break to you all, raid participation for most of the WoW audience was never an issue prior to Cata. Show me the evidence and numbers too, to back up your claims other than the Naxx example.

I don’t want PR speak from Ghostcrawler either, because with out the actual raid participation numbers from Vanilla through Wrath anything they said can’t be backed up.

1 Like
154

I suppose it depends on exactly what my menu looks like. If I only sell a handful of burgers, I might attempt to add more burgers. If I’m already offering 20+ kinds of burgers, I’m probably adding a few varieties of hot dogs to bring in a new variety of customer.

I would not, however, add foot long hot dogs that you could only get by eating burgers. Why would you tolerate having to order things you don’t want just to get the one thing you do want?

The point I’ve been making was about content like Heritage Armor. When almost all races get their Heritage armor right away at level 120 or through a very short quest line, it doesn’t make sense that one race has theirs locked behind a raid. That kind of content doesn’t make sense to put behind a raid.

Putting titles, transmog, etc, behind PvP/Raids/etc? That’s fine, and you and I are not disagreeing about that aspect of things.

What we’re disagreeing about is whether or not there’s value in putting unrelated things behind unrelated walls. Children’s Week is just one example. Don’t get me wrong, many people have done it, but “suck it up we all had to do it” is just an appeal to tradition, and that’s a logical fallacy. Just because it’s always been that way doesn’t mean it’s good, it just means you had to do it and you want to make sure everyone else has to do it.

As above, just because people grin and bear it doesn’t make the argument faulty. The point isn’t that people can’t go do the raid to get their heritage armor, it’s that they shouldn’t have to because it’s not raid related content.

When you want to create crossover between content, it should be organic and sensible. Arbitrarily sticking things in places is a strange choice.

Imagine, if you will, that they put a new achievement in the game for winning 1,000 PvP Pet Battles. If you do that, you get a new Essence for the Heart of Azeroth. This Essence is BiS for every class in both PvE and PvP.

The response, as you would have it, is just to roll up your sleeves and do it. The response, as I would have it, would be to realize that’s kind of excessive and that it’s not really the right place for something like that.

I’m really going to need to ask this question, but I’m surprised I have to:

What value do these kinds of activities add to the game? What value does it add to the community?

It’s most certainly not converting non PvP players into PvP players. It’s certainly not making PvP players happy about carebears showing up and screwing with them for a week.

At what point, exactly, do we see value added to the game by forcing players to engage in content that they don’t want in a way that doesn’t provide long term benefits to the games health?

7 Likes
155

I have…

I saw one yesterday that insisted that normal should be replaced by LFR and heroic be replaced by Mythic.

It was obvious they’d never done any raid other than LFR too.

I mean… what an insane difficulty curve.

Imagine going from LFR straight to Mythic. :laughing:

156

It didn’t use to be. It used to be the endgame.

It may be now but only because Blizzard has slowly strangled it by removing almost all of the incentives to actually participate.

157

Fair enough (it probably will by the end of the patch – the rest of BFA had emissary and warfront quests scaling up to Heroic raid – but it doesn’t yet).

Benthic goes that high though, and is easy to socket. Keep in mind we’ve passed the turning point in gear where secondaries usually mean more than primary, so a socket is usually worth like 20 ilvl.

This much I can get behind. Again I’m with you on stuff like heritage and spirit beast, that wasn’t cool.

158

Three threads is a crusade. Ok…

Remember WoD and the nerfed LFR? People were happy with how nerfed it was correct? Not like they demanded it start dropping blues or in the case of preach that non Raiders get sloppy seconds months after they’ve used the content.

159

Nope they are not…….wait who was that in the bushes running from my house :scream: :scream: :crazy_face:

1 Like
160

Look, if anyone says “death to xyz” we forsaken must agree and add “and death to the living!”. It is in our DNA!

161

The correct answer was

“YES! ALL THE TIME!”

162

Don’t be mean. It’s counterproductive to your original post.

Attack the argument, not the person.

2 Likes
163

That’s fair, and the Benthic gear is outperforming pieces of 445 mythic raid gear (and I agree that is a BIG problem) in EP. It’s not all that great for dungeon-runners like me, unless it rolls a socket. And then I have to grind pearls to upgrade it, and . . . . you’ve already lost me. xD

I’m okay with people grinding their way to 425 via manapearls, because it’s likely going to take them significantly longer to hit that gear threshold than it did me via mythic+. And by the time the more casual community gets to the 425 level, the raiders and dungeon-runners will be ~435 or 440+.

It’s the circle of (gear) life, I guess.

1 Like
164

There is probably a lot more threads every single day calling for nerfs to gear for ‘casuals’ made by raiders/

3 Likes
165

Well the day raiding goes away is the day I unsub. It is the only thing I like doing in this game. I like the people that I play with and that involves raiding and mythics. The rest is just a job to be able to do those two things.

1 Like
166

And this exactly is what causes problems - stop this attitude and you won’t get as much backlash.