Sylvanas Has The Support Of The People And Thrall Knows He’s Committing Treason Against Them

Lore Story Forum
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Somehow I missed your previous reply, so I’ll get to it now. As far as Zoram’gar goes, the point still stands, the stories and the game present it in a contradictory manner. Earlier in Good War Saurfang statement shows that the Horde has still used the outpost, while in-game it’s still manned.

Mor’shan being unmanned does not show that the settlements within Ashenvale proper have been abandoned. Again, there is no purpose in upkeeping defenses at the border of the Barrens if the factions are at peace.

It actually depends on whether or not a formal peace treaty is established. If Sylvanas is killed and the war de-facto ends, but we never get any later mention of a treaty, then it would still be a valid casus belli with no agreement rendering it void.

Regardless of the writers ignoring the Alliance’s actions, nothing has actually retconned what they’ve done. Going all the way back to vanilla they’ve always been the faction which has broken the peace and attacked first. Blizzard can forget this as much as they like, but it doesn’t change the fact of the matter.

Such as? I’ll admit I made a mistake regarding that secondary statement in Good War, but considering the other evidence it still neither proves your claim in the specific regarding that outpost in particular, nor in regards to the other settlements in the East. Beyond that, I’d like you to show me where I’ve made unbacked declarations.

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A-alright. Yeah sure. They staved off genocide and then branched out into hundreds of brand new settlements across an entire continent, spanning as many territories as a neighboring civilization of elves in five years. In that time, the elves grew a tree. Sounds right.

No land tauren now inhabit is land they held prior to five years before vanilla. This is the story we believe WoW is telling? Really?

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Hundreds of settlements, that seems like a rather large exaggeration. But yes, defeating the Centaur allowed the nomadic Tauren to no longer be nomadic. Hence why currently most of their settlements are largely tent structures. But the majority of Tauren settlements outside specifically Mulgore and the Barrens are small. But the premise ‘if the Tauren just fought the Centaur, they would have won’ goes against the lore we are told.

As for the Night Elves, they barely expanded in ten-thousand years.

Again, largely nomadic. That was the situation, yes. They moved constantly in response to Centaur attacks. There is no Tauren power base as you seem to believe, watching the Tauren at large get pushed around.

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Hence why I referred to retcons, which are the changing of facts.

The following:

You declared that the Horde were still in the eastern outposts, and then admit you have no evidence that they were.

The closest thing you’re trying to pass off as evidence is the following technicality - which isn’t even applicable, as Zoram’gar Outpost was not an eastern outpost any way:

And one that works against you when how “much” the Horde used it was so little that it fell to ruins. Your back attempt at this is to reference the in-game event, which you admit is contradictory to A Good War, so you can’t even claim which one is canon or not.

That’s all you seem to do, though. Cover your eyes and close your eyes and say “You don’t know” when ironically you yourself don’t know. And then bringing up honesty afterwards just shows the absences of your own credibility in that regard.

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But the track record isn’t retconning Alliance aggression, it’s simply ignoring it.

First of all, it’s not even slightly an unbacked declaration to say the Southfury runs just alongside the Warsong settlement, you can go into the game right now and see that it does.

Secondly, you seem to be confused, because when I’m referring to the “Eastern settlements”, I’m not talking about Zoram’gar, which is in the extreme West of Ashenvale. I’m talking about Kargathia Keep, the Warsong camp, Splintertree Post, and perhaps Warsong Gulch, though that’s a bit less Eastern than the others.

The point I’m making is that the evidence is inconclusive. Zoram’gar has contradictory information (As well as a logical reason to go unmanned, given it’s far removal from other Horde settlements and it’s purpose in war being made irrelevant), Mor’shan likewise has a good reason to be abandoned given a bulwark on the border of the Barrens wouldn’t be necessary any longer, and we simply have no information on the other settlements I noted.

If we don’t have evidence stating those settlements were abandoned, we must assume the status quo of how they were last known, which is that they were still active.

That’s the difference between us here. I’m saying, “We don’t know, so we should assume no changes”, while you’re saying “We don’t know, so we should assume these changes”. In the absence of knowledge on the matter, the first position is far more reasonable.

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No, that was my point. A quote from A Good War about the western outpost is not evidence of the Horde even sometimes using anything in the east.

No, you’re saying, “We don’t know, so we should assume no changes, because it’s reasonable to ignore Tyrande saying the Horde has to abandon Ashenvale, even though the Horde factually abandoned Mor’shan Rampart, because it’s convenient for me to ignore lore that suggests something differently from what I want to be the case.”

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but when I was referencing the quote, I was talking about Zoram’gar, not the settlements in the East.

Yes, it is reasonable, because we have little to no reason to believe the gossip text from the leaders after SoO actually became terms of the treaty or actioned items. No garrison was created near Theramore, Gilneas wasn’t cleansed or rebuilt, Sylvanas basically continued to do as she pleased, and you yourself noted that the Night Elves remain in Azshara, meaning Tyrande hasn’t ceded it to the Horde as her dialogue implied. If she didn’t give the Horde the concession that was supposed to be in exchange for leaving Ashenvale, why should we think they left Ashenvale?

The Mor’shan Rampart isn’t even in Ashenvale. And again, it would make sense that it was abandoned simply because it had no purpose in a world where the factions were at peace.

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In ye olde politics, what was treason and what wasn’t was dictated solely by the key members of the court (Marshals, Spymasters, what have you). The Warchief can declare it’s all treason, but it means nothing if the people who put her orders in motion don’t elect to punish themselves. The burden of leadership, among many things, is the appeasement of the court to keep them happy and willing to carry out your orders. Otherwise, none of your orders will come to be a reality. At least, that’s how it should work.

It would’ve prevented an entire expansion’s worth of heartache over Teldrassil, a logistical headache that was somehow skimmed over in just a day’s time.

If they had waited for a prime opportunity for when the Alliance was weak and unable to take advantage of a unstable political environment (such as suffering an extreme military loss.), it’d be a lot easier, bloodless and not an eye-rolling revolt. It would be a court replacing its leader.

As per the OP’s question of if I were excited for the story as a Horde character, (profanity) no. This is dog(profanity) and the fact that this was allowed to be pushed forward by a AAA company is unacceptable. BFA needs to be retconned. It can be put together in different pieces but the story as is, is absolute horse(profanity).

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Darethy was the first succulent sprouts of green and violet on a snow-covered plain, the first sweet smell of spring in desolation—whose life, alas, was cut short by an eternal winter.

He’s also an Forsaken poster who was active in 8.0 and 8.1 who liked BfA, but who’s since gone AWOL.

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I’m pretty sure that’s like, half the Forsaken posters on these forums atm. The other half are the people who just want to spite the writers.

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Yeah, but Darethy just had a … unique perspective.

He was witty and knew how to build Douglas Adams style ridiculous metaphor trains that somehow made his point exactly.

He was also deeply knowledgeable about lore and real-life history, and as a Vietnamese person intimately wrapped up in his country’s history, he brought a unique perspective to talking about BfA’s politics. He was really the only person who could make me take the “Sylvanas is being reasonable” line seriously.

IDK. I was / am a Darethy fan. There’s not much else I can say I guess.

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Unfortunately, Children’s Week is over.

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My point was that you don’t even have any evidence about the Horde in the east of Ashenvale at all.

Do you have evidence that there’s no new garrison new Theramore? Your whole stance is we don’t know, yet once again you’ll make declarative statements about things you don’t know to be true to make your case. And when this gets pointed out you fall back on “we have to take status quo” as an false axiom that we don’t actually have to do.

Since you like technicalities in wording so much, looking back at what Tyrande said, she doesn’t actually say she’d cede Azshara to the Horde, just allow them to use its lumber:

And it would make perfect sense for the Horde to have abandoned Ashenvale for good to establish that peace.

I have Tyrande’s words to back up that idea.

You have nothing to support your claim that the Horde was still there. And so you rely upon ignoring what the writers put into the setting not even to prove your claim, but barely even to allow its plausibility.

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I can’t say it enough, I hate fighting the horde as the horde.

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Darethy is a fan of the Forsaken because their former identity ties to Lordaeron spoke to him in the way that reminded him of how he identifies with the country of Vietnam. He liked BfA because of the exploration of what it meant to be a Forsaken. Darethy isn’t a contrarian who is a fan of things because he’s told not to like them like a lot of the remaining Sylvanas fans. He puts rather in-depth reasoning and effort into his thoughts and posts, as long as people don’t try to antagonize him and make him lose his cool by saying the Forsaken don’t deserve Lordaeron or otherwise try to undercut his views.

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And lacking evidence about the settlements in the East, we must assume their last known status as being ongoing.

Do you have evidence there is? It’s not in-game, it’s never been referenced by anything, and the BfA mission table actually suggests they’re only just now scouting out the area for a new base.

Again, if we do not have new information showing things have changed, we can only rely on our last known sources, which in this case would mean the settlements are still active. It’s not a false axiom even slightly, it’s simply how canon operates, in lieu of old information being overridden by new information, it is still correct.

Talrendis Point happens to be immediately surrounded by lumber, so I’m a bit doubtful the Night Elves would let the Horde walk into their base and start logging. In that case, Tyrande wouldn’t be fulfilling her part of the agreement - Even if, as you say, it wasn’t actually an agreement to give them the territory, which is a bit laughable considering it would be telling the Horde to give up it’s holdings merely in exchange for resources.

Except Tyrande’s words don’t back up that idea, since there’s no direct proof her words - Or the words of Varian - Actually went into practice.

The claim that the Horde still holds those bases is the default position. It’s your claim that they’re gone that needs to be proven.

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This, in which your entire stance is based on, is a declarative statement for which you have no actual backing for.

There is no such view within the lore communities that this is a factor in how we agree upon what is canon.

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But they’d been separated from each other since the Sundering. You may have noticed that Taurens don’t do boats.

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And if you read, you may have noticed that my point was Cairne’s tribe being separated from other Tauren tribes was as reasonable as them being separated from Kaldorei assistance. So if you feel the Kaldorei not helping is unreasonable, there is no reason to not hold the other Tauren tribes to that standard. And likewise, if you feel the Tauren tribes not helping is reasonable because they were separated, there is no reason not to hold the Kaldorei to that standard.

Because the Kaldorei were separated from Tauren affairs also.

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You forgot about the plain fact that again… they were next door neighbors in what we now call Kalimdor.

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