I have never understood why Blizzard didn’t do more with Gorgonna after Wrath of the Lich King. I thought she was a great character - tough, smart and with a strong ethical/moral centre.
Another Arthas or Garithos?
That was 16 years ago man.
- Taking dark turns adds volumes to your faction, and makes it interesting.
Being always good = boring
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It’s just pretend “Cool” wannabes who are trying hard to jump on the “If you don’t do anything bad or evil you are one dimensional and boring” bandwagon.
Ignore them.
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By that logic people should like Superman taking dark turns.
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Plenty of people do. The Amazon series ‘The Boys’ is a prime example.
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Which he has, a few times. And it was cool, especially seeing him try to make it back to his old self.
Vengeance can be Righteous bruh let’s quit acting like it can’t be.
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I find the people who use the “warchief musical chairs” line the most are the people who just want Sylvanas to stay in power.
I don’t like changing warchiefs all the time either, but they shouldn’t stop when we have the least popular warchief ever. The right time to stop was with Vol’jin, but they went another round, so we need to keep going until we get one that brings the Horde back on track.
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I think it’s both Sylvanas fans and fans who are tired of rebelling against the Horde and actually just want a good Warchief they can follow like Vol’jin was.
This is what I was talking about.
I do not believe Horde fans actually want the Alliance to be “interesting.” I believe they just want the Alliance to get the same bad writing that the Horde has.
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WARCHIEF MUSICAL CHAIRS SHOULD HAVE STOPPED AT VOL’JIN!!!
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The idea that the Alliance needs to be dark in order to be interesting has been pervasive in these boards for a long time.
From a narrative standpoint, being “dark” doesn’t make anyone interesting, being flawed does. Flaws are what make characters relatable. The Alliance doesn’t need to lose their “paragons of virtue” theme; we just need to see them struggle with it more. Have them make tough decisions with no clear right answer. Have them mess up and suffer fallout from their loved ones and allies. Anduin especially needs to screw up. “We can’t afford to send troops to Darkshore” is just a starting point. We need to see the cost of his naivety. We need to see him struggle, fail, learn, and grow. If he is just a brilliant leader with impeccable judgement, an unerring moral compass, and the love and support of everyone around him, then he’s boring (which is why I really hope they don’t just drop the whole Tryande and Genn being upset with him thing).
Doubt is something real people battle with every day, not just that one time at the end of Temple of the Jade Serpent. Everyone in Warcraft speaks with such conviction all the time. The only uncertainty is “if we can pull it off” and not “is the right method?” or “should we even try to pull this off in the first place?” Nope. Everyone has an idea and then they act it out with zero self-reflection. It’s a problem on both sides, but the Horde has so many other problems that this one becomes less noticeable.
What makes Saurfang interesting to me is what makes him so despised by other posters. He wants to do the right thing, but he doesn’t know what to do in every situation. Sometimes he makes bad decisions. The Alliance needs more characters like that. The only one who has gone through anything similar is Jaina, but I can’t get on board with her struggle because her biggest regret is the time when she actually did the right thing even though it made her unpopular with her people at home.
I know I am making a case for character flaws being a good thing, but this time I want to see a little conviction from her. Being proud of a decision she made because it was the right thing to do, even though her father died for it and her family and people hate her. Someone struggling to regain the trust of her loved ones while making no apologies for doing the right thing, now that would be a character I could root for.
I’ve said it in another thread, but dark and edgy are not inherently interesting. What’s interesting is drama and tension. The Alliance feels boring because they don’t have enough of either. Are we to believe the leaders multiple sovereign nations just pool all their resources together with no issues? The Night Elves shunned arcane magics for millennia, but have no problem with the Kirin Tor? Lightforged and Void Elves just get along despite being incompatible? There’s no way integrating new cultures can be so seamless. Give us drama!
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I think people have selective perceptions on what they are asking for.
Because the War of the Thorns is exactly this, minus the growth.
Anduin naively thought he could pressure Sylvanas with any army of spies to make her think she couldn’t make any aggressive moves without him knowing it. Shaw thought his spies were gathering perfect information. Tyrande bought all this and thought she was out maneuvering the Horde by sending the Night Elf’s forces to Silithus ahead of the Horde.
And Teldrassil burned because of it. The Alliance’s flaw is its naïveté. And the Alliance suffered for the flaw with having Ashenvale and Darkshore marched through and countless die on Teldrassil.
And what did the Alliance learn from that? Grow from it? Nothing. Anduin corners Sylvanas. Alleria says she should have killed Sylvanas when last they met. And they give Sylvanas a chance to stand down, because once again the Alliance is naive enough to think the Sylvanas would just buckle under the pressure. And as Sylvanas says, they won nothing, as she escapes and leaves them with territory they can’t even use.
And where is Anduin at now? Still not wanting to stoop to Sylvanas’ level. Not pressing the attack when they have a chance, instead waiting for the remains of the Horde’s new navy to sail out to win the war in the noble Alliance way. To fall into Sylvanas’ trap yet again and lose their ships to Nazjatar.
You known what else is the Alliance’s flaw beyond naïveté? The Alliance doesn’t learn.
So, no, flaws will not necessarily make the Alliance more interesting, because the Alliance isn’t allowed to grow, isn’t allowed to actually stop Sylvanas, because then the expansion would be over sooner than Blizzard wants it to be.
But these flaws aren’t convenient to people’s points, so they leave them in their blindspots so they can say the Alliance doesn’t have flaws and doesn’t pay for them.
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You could have the Alliance have strife and moral quandaries without major characters being the villain. You know that right?
For instance you have the Stormwind and Stromgarde nobility who could make a reappearance. Or that Alterac noble in Stormwind Keep who could make a bid for taking if for himself. There are tons of arcs that don’t have to even necessarily make you the player the bad guy.
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All I am saying is it isn’t necessary for Alliance to become dark or edgy for them to be interesting. They don’t need to be “morally gray.” The can be, and it certainly would be nice as a Horde player to feel like I am fighting people that deserve it, but it’s not necessary for them to be interesting.
Dubious morals isn’t interesting, conflict is interesting. And it’s not enough to only struggle against your enemies. The Alliance needs to struggle internally, too. With as many characters as the Alliance has, there certainly is room for certain personalities to clash. Anduin should be made to face his failures by the other leaders. No one questioned his appointment to High King, and no one seems to regret giving it to him despite there being better candidates.
Horde has a lot more internal conflict. Many Horde posters say we are more interesting than the Alliance because we are morally gray and they aren’t. For me, at least, that’s not the reason at all. We’re more interesting because our conflicts are more interesting. Orcs have PTSD from the time they were under Mannoroth’s control; Blood Elves and Nighborne struggled with addiction; Farsaken had their humanity stripped away from them and then were persecuted by their former race (something that didn’t happen to the worgen); even our most peace loving race, the tauren, have internal political conflict between the Bloodhoof and Grimtotem tribes. And now we are gearing up to depose our Warchief for a second time.
Alliance doesn’t have to be evil. They don’t even need to be a darker shade of gray. But some internal politics would be nice, or maybe some economic class disparity? Whatever happened to the Defias Brotherhood?
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Right. It’s easy for Alliance players to forget that we’ve gone years with the gas tank on Empty while they constantly have an entirely filled roster. Any time the Alliance loses a character, it is instantly replaced. The only exception to this that I can recall is gnomeking, and we all know why he hasn’t been replaced yet.
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That’s a boring and lame flaw though. And really, the story hardly presents it as a flaw with them, but instead as a flaw with all the characters that don’t conform to those views because they’re evil.
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Absolutely anything!?! Even blow up a planet that just 1 of their soldiers is on?
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Superman is the most boring hero ever.
On another note… the alliance doesn’t need to do evil things to be interesting… they need to be proactive, maybe taking out a few horde caravans, sacking a horde encampment here and there. Idk, not necessarily evil if its a military target.
Anyone can list same-race enemies for all of the playable races. You yourself pointed out the Defias - which last I checked, Westfall is still on fire for, as it’s not that there isn’t internal opposition, it’s that Blizzard leaves those stories uncontinued. But every race has that. Eredar. Sicco Thermaplugg. Dark Iron Ragnaros worshippers. At this point the variety of corruptible traitor Night Elves is a gimmick. Etc.
The reason the Horde is gearing up to depose their Warchief is the same reason the Horde rebelled last time: the Warchief had become a threat to the Horde.
Why is no one rebelling against Anduin? Because he hasn’t threatened any of other Alliance races.
And in that sense the Horde is exactly like the Alliance. They only have internal conflict when those conflicts put the factions at odds with themselves.
For example: Where is the internal conflict in the Horde over the War of the Thorns? Or the burning of Teldrassil? There is only silence. Nothing different there than no one speaking up against Anduin on the Alliance.
When does the Horde have internal conflict now? When Sylvanas throws out the Forsaken value of free will and becomes a threat to the Tauren.
Why doesn’t the Alliance turn against Anduin? Because he wouldn’t actually hurt anyone else.
So, yes, Anduin is not particularly exciting. But frankly, the Horde with its complacency until it itself is threatened is just as boring.
And countless Night Elves died for that boring and lame flaw. As this was what I was responding to:
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I think the Alliance story would benefit from a “hawks vs doves” scenario.
BFA had the perfect setup to make Anduin and maybe Velen be the doves; and Genn and the Night Elves be the hawks.
But, nope. Everyone fall in behind Anduin 'cuz his magic bones will always make him right.
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