(Spoilers) Baine's 🧠

[Veloran-wyrmrest-accord (Veloran)]

Because it relates to the claims being made in our discussion of the situation. More so than just the enjoyment, but the perceived morality.

But I don’t see why claims have to have some sort of intrinsic moral tie. Particularly whatever morals you hold in reality, I think it makes much more sense to argue from the context of the universe.

I don’t see why, if you think your opinion on it doesn’t matter at all, you so insistently refuse to give it. Feels like you think it matters some.

I just don’t like giving out personal information. But again, as I just said, the reasons I’d object in reality don’t really have moral basis and aren’t really applicable to the Warcraft universe.

[Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord (Irenaus)]

Particularly whatever morals you hold in reality,

Because we are talking about them in reality and such is the context of they are being moralized. You can go to the World’s End Tavern if you want to roleplay.

I just don’t like giving out personal information.

Your opinion on the topic of ‘enslavement for immortality’ is really that personal to you?

[Tartheod-bloodhoof]

Your opinion on the topic is really that personal to you?

He just gave you his opinion, if you read between the lines…

But again, as I just said, the reasons I’d object in reality don’t really have moral basis and aren’t really applicable to the Warcraft universe.

He would object. He just doesn’t want to give you his reason why.

[Grahntorinu-wyrmrest-accord (Grahntorinu)]

I don’t understand whatever I was thinking when I made this thread. Baine shouldn’t have been mocked for his yearn for peace between the factions, and it’s only now that I realize it’s up to him to put a stop to Sylvannas’s traitorous schemes once and for all.

[Jazia-sargeras (Jazia)]

I don’t understand whatever I was thinking when I made this thread. Baine shouldn’t have been mocked for his yearn for peace between the factions, and it’s only now that I realize it’s up to him to put a stop to Sylvannas’s traitorous schemes once and for all.

. . . what?

Did. . . someone change their mind on the internet?

Is this a trap?!?

[Grahntorinu-wyrmrest-accord (Grahntorinu)]

Please take a gander at the my thread : Baine must save the Forsaken for details on my new journey!

[Ocmulgee-wyrmrest-accord (Ocmulgee)]

What I find most ironic about all of the Baine hate is that the same people who hate Baine often want Cairne back despite Baine and Cairne having very similar ideals regarding peace between the Horde and Alliance. Cairne was not a war monger. He longed for peace above all else. Also, remember that the duel which killed him, was initiated by him because he thought Garrosh sanctioned the killing of Horde and Alliance druids. Baine helped Vol’jin lead the resistance against Garrosh the same as his father would have had the duel to the death not taken place. Cairne, like Baine, also wasn’t impulsive. He took his time and meditated on all options before acting. But they both do act against what they see as dishonorable and work to rectify the problem and punish those they see as unfit leaders.

[Lithya-sargeras (Lithya)]

Actually Cairne tried to stop Garrosh before we get to we are today.

Sadly he failed.

[Zuleika-hyjal (Zuleika)]

@Grahntorinu-wyrmrest-accord

I don’t understand whatever I was thinking when I made this thread. Baine shouldn’t have been mocked for his yearn for peace between the factions, and it’s only now that I realize it’s up to him to put a stop to Sylvannas’s traitorous schemes once and for all.

@Grahntorinu-wyrmrest-accord

Please take a gander at the my thread : Baine must save the Forsaken for details on my new journey!

I legit can’t tell if this is satire or not.

[Alluringdawn-proudmoore (Alluringdawn)]

I’m still waiting for the Tauren to get fed up.

[Laeth-hakkar]

What I find most ironic about all of the Baine hate is that the same people who hate Baine often want Cairne back despite Baine and Cairne having very similar ideals regarding peace between the Horde and Alliance.

Has nothing to do with my dislike of Baine. He’s trying for peace like his father, but he’s flailing and falling about in all the wrong ways.

Cairne wouldn’t have let Taurjo go unanswered, he would have dealt with Magatha, and now he definitely wouldn’t have gone along with genocide. Carine tried for peace, and was likeable and competent. He died trying to save all of us, he didn’t let it get to a “straw that broke the cow’s back” moment.

Baine?

War? grumble
Genocide? grumble
Mind controlling a single undead for revenge after a potential ally was horribly decimated just for being associated with the Horde? “THIS IS UNFORGIVEABLE!”

Straw (emphasis on straw) that break the back outcomes work when it’s a lot of things that build up. War of Thorns far exceeded anything else, and to treat it as a minor thing compared to Derek? Yeah, Baine can’t carry that. As shown thus far he only really takes actual action when it’s personal to him.

[Grahntorinu-wyrmrest-accord (Grahntorinu)]

It’s just a prank bro.

[Solythn-zuljin (Solythn)]

Straw (emphasis on straw) that break the back outcomes work when it’s a lot of things that build up.

It’s almost like starting the expansion off with an atrocity of unprecedented magnitude was a terrible narrative decision that this expansion’s story has not and probably won’t ever recover from.

If only someone could have predicted how badly this would go (aside from basically everyone on this forum, who did.)

[Jazia-sargeras (Jazia)]

Straw (emphasis on straw) that break the back outcomes work when it’s a lot of things that build up. War of Thorns far exceeded anything else, and to treat it as a minor thing compared to Derek? Yeah, Baine can’t carry that. As shown thus far he only really takes actual action when it’s personal to him.

What makes this sort of work for me is approaching it with the idea that this is the first thing he could actually stop from happening.

Teldrassil happened and it was awful, but he couldn’t prevent it. All he could do is choose whether or not to continue to support the Horde, including all those people who never had a say in starting the war.

The Derek situation is more personal, because of his friendship and debt to Jaina, but it’s also something happening right now, in front of him.

He can prevent it.

So he does.

I think that suits Baine’s character well enough.

Of course the real problem isn’t Baine, it’s that all of the Horde characters are being strangled by a forced war narrative that raised the stakes way too high way too soon.

[Lithya-sargeras (Lithya)]

What makes this sort of work for me is approaching it with the idea that this is the first thing he could actually stop from happening.

Yes he could have.
So could have Saurfang. Especially Saurfang.

If anything this would have been an extremely powerful moment for the Horde and their self image.
Sylvanas: BURN IT.
Saurfang: No. And anyone who tries will meet my axe.

Have a tension between the Orcs + Tauren and Forsaken + Goblins. Saurfang witnessed and willingly participated in the slaughter of Shattrath. It would have been an incredible moment worthy of a cinematic as he remembered his own sins and actually grew as a character to stop yet another tragedy.

It would have shown orcs could be better. The horde could be better.
But nope. Zug Zug. Work Work. they all obey like mindless drones and then they cry about it later.

Talk about weak and cowardly.

Of course the real problem isn’t Baine, it’s that all of the Horde characters are being strangled by a forced war narrative that raised the stakes way too high way too soon.

They burned Teldrassil for marketing purposes. Nothing more.
They dont care for a satisfying payoff. All they could hope for is that people move on and salvage everything with the next expansion.

[Jazia-sargeras (Jazia)]

Yes he could have.

Baine wasn’t there.

He couldn’t stop it.

[Thilena-zuljin (Thilena)]

Do they? Apparently a lot here hate Baine because he’s not evil. And would be willing to sacrifice the spirit of the Horde to win a war they didn’t want and apparently makes them feel bad.

Naw, we hate the Sylvanas storyline because we’re tired of blizzard writing us into the evil faction.

We hate Baine because he’s a coward who’ll sacrifice his own people so he won’t have to defend them.

[Unholyfear-proudmoore (Unholyfear)]

How does going against the Lich Queen = Coward? A coward would be someone blindly following Sylvanas no matter how far she drags the Horde down.

[Jazia-sargeras (Jazia)]

Anyone who prefers peace and tries to avoid conflict is a coward.

It can’t possibly just be that they love peace and hate conflict.

They must be scaredy-cows.

You didn’t know?

[Thilena-zuljin (Thilena)]

How does going against the Lich Queen = Coward? A coward would be someone blindly following Sylvanas no matter how far she drags the Horde down.

I was referring more to his running and hiding during Cataclysm. But with Sylvanas he can’t even call her out on her actions himself.

Anyone who prefers peace and tries to avoid conflict is a coward.

It can’t possibly just be that they love peace and hate conflict.

They must be scaredy-cows.

You didn’t know?

I mean, at this point after I’ve explained my position multiple times I can only assume you’re arguing in bad faith. Baine decided he’d rather run and hide after his people died. That’s not peace loving, that’s cowardice. Velen showed more spine when it came to the Orcs and Legion.