So is it safe to assume that surv won't be receiving major changes going into SL?

Classes Hunter
61

I think it’s important to admit that Surv simply isn’t designed with pve in mind. The “rotation” isn’t a factor in pvp; the high synergy between bombs, goose/raptor, and kill command is.

Wanting a “filler second melee swing” is very much a pve perspective because there are abilities we use in pvp that you do not use in pve; like wing clip, trapping on goes using harpoon and net as aides.

I do agree that it’d be nice to have a more engaging build for pve, but not at the expense of changing how the specs baseline functionality excels in pvp. Especially without addressing the main reason we’re not desired in raids; because we don’t bring any special utility to the table. Surv is not the only melee in that position.

62

I kinda skimmed thru the replies and find it hard to understand how survival being the meta spec for pvp means it’s in a good spot. Survival has been the meta spec for pvp in bfa because

  1. MM and BM were complete dog tier and anyone could beat them playing with 1 hand after drinking 17 shots of vodka, and
  2. Mending bandage is a huge counter to sin rogues which has also been a dominant meta pick in bfa therefore giving a huge advantage to surv comps that get queued into sin comps.
    Those two factors have nothing to do with whether survival is in a good state design wise.

In my original post I actually said nothing about the melee/ranged aspect of the spec. I for one like the melee inspiration of survival and played the crap out of it during legion. My problem with survival in BFA(and by extention SL since they are receiving virtually 0 design changes) isnt that it’s melee; it’s that it’s just boring and unspired. The best simming talents for survival dps are literally the most boring ones that have 0 interaction. Wanna have a more complex rotation with more buttons to press by speccing into steel trap or murder of crows? Too bad, bloodseeker is the best talent by giving you a dot passive with 0 thought put into it. Same for wildfire infusion vs birds of prey. Apparently having a flat dmg % increase CD wasn’t uninspired enough, because blizz had to take a step further and put in a talent(birds of prey) that encourages mindless spamming to extend said uninspired CD.

And speaking of uninspired talent choices, why is mongoose bite still a talent? It being baseline and having an interaction with fury of the eagle was really enjoyable in legion. Now MB takes up a pointless spot in the talent row and I say pointless because anyone who thinks any other talent choice in the row is anywhere near as competitive as MB is frankly delusional. This has been the case the entirety of bfa and looks like it’ll be the case going into SL as well, but apparently nothing is being done to change it. So we are likely to have another dead row for the next 2 years.

I just find it hilarious and sad at the same time that the highest dmg build for survival is all passive talent choices and the rotation literally comes down to 4 buttons(serpent sting, bomb, MB, KC) aside from kill shot in execute phase. If I wanted to play a 4 button rotation I would have played a demon hunter or BM.

No, the only factor for survival in pvp is being a trap bot, roar bot, freedom bot, and mending bot. Their utility is quite possibly the only fun source of their gameplay because their actual rotation is so braindead.

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There’s a Dunning Kruger effect with Surv in pvp where people that don’t frequently play it think they understand the interactions better than they do.

You need to stop looking at “sims”, they’re not all they’re cracked up to be. Raptor strike is in fact viable, so are crows, so is tip of the spear, but your play style must change to compensate. 3x Kill Command into Raptor Strike with 10 stacks of Latent Poison is nothing to laugh at, particularly right now in pre-patch. I’d actually argue that Tip of the Spear + alpha predator + bloodseeker is superior to mongoose right now during pre-patch based on a couple dozen battlegrounds, regardless of what the precious sims reflect. This also gives you a bit more freedom to play up the ranged aspects of the spec, as you’re no longer tied to goose windows, but instead spend more time jousting in and out to use up your latent poison ticks between Pheromone Bomb procs.

Sims do not tell the full story in pve, and they don’t even tell a third of it in pvp. It’s a shame the pvp community has been infected by the sim-mind in recent years. That certainly wasn’t always the case and general competence levels have plummeted because of it.

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I never really tied sims into any of my pvp argument but sure. I’m a 3k xp multiglad(not even counting bfa because bfa gladiator is a joke) rogue/hunter/hpal player so im pretty sure I know what im talking about when it comes to pvp, and anyone who plays anything other than MB in 3s is nonexistent because it’s dumb. And prepatch viability is meaningless to talk about because it’s prepatch.

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Glad has been a joke for way longer than BFA, I’d take anything post MoP with a massive grain of salt, and I don’t mean any offense by that. There’s very little difference between high rival and low glad gameplay now, and it’s been that way for years.

Why are you posting on your rogue instead of your hunter? Your hunter isn’t showing up on tracking sites, which gives the impression that it hasn’t been touched in a very long time.

Mongoose is superior, but the difference is far more marginal than you seem to realize, perhaps because you haven’t actually tried a raptor-oriented build.

Prepatch viability isn’t particularly meaningful in general, but in the specific case of surv right now, it’s actually pretty meaningful. Why? Because surv hasn’t been changed going into SL, as you’re well aware. We’re also retaining a lot of our borrowed power features in Shadowlands; for example, Latent Poison is still around in SL.

The build I mentioned above will in fact most certainly be superior for the initial stages of Shadowlands, because we do not have the ability to gain enough haste in early Shadowlands to make the 'goose build an effective playstyle, though goose will overtake it again once you get the pre-requisite haste.

Speaking in ultimatums is a pretty dumb thing to do. It’s very possible to succeed without playing the best (on paper) spec or build. If your belief that one must play the exact cookie cutter spec to succeed were true, Grandfather Hog wouldn’t be maintaining rating as lolBM.

Playstyle and awareness matters so much more than the cookie cutter, unless of course you’re an RMP player, because RMP has been a glorified form of PVE for half a decade now.

Which toon are you “3k XP” on, btw? Because it’s not either of your rogues.

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If they did nothing but make Mongoose Bite baseline, since it’s a mandatory talent for both PvE and PvP, and revert the pet res change, I’d be happy with it. SV as is, is still one of the strongest PvP specs in the game, and should scale far better into SL this time around with numbers tuning.

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Yeah I know how people have a tendency of discrediting anything that is recent and glorifying anything that is old, because they either never played the old expansions or have diluted memories that they can only reflect upon behind rose tinted glass. I’d take mop glad, wod glad, or legion glad any day over a shadowmourne dk/ret gladiator from wotlk or father daggers rogue from cata, and the list goes on.

Funnily enough literally anyone who would say dumb statements like this are the people who never even remotely get close to getting glad themselves.

Because I don’t enjoy bfa survival for the exact same reasons I’ve stated in my above post.

The fact that you are citing literally one person should hurt your argument more than mine. We’ve all seen stories of successful painters with missing arms who have learnt to draw with their toes. To see that and say it’s viable to be a painter using your toes would be delusional.

yikes

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Ah, yes, the final season and raid tier of Cata and Wrath are totally indicative of the overall status of those expansions. Excellent point!

MoP was the last expansion worth taking glad achievements seriously. WoD was plagued with cheating and low participation making it easy to sandbag the ladder, Legion and BFA were littered with game design problems.

These are not rare opinions, you just don’t like it.

Funnily enough literally anyone who would say dumb statements like this are the people who never even remotely get close to getting glad themselves.

Most multiglads whose first glad predates the games first major death (WoD) do express this opinion, that the complexity of glad level gameplay has gone down tremendously over the years.
It’s kinda why the pvp community was so excited about unpruning, have you forgotten already? Pruning after MoP turned PVP into a much more predictable game of cooldown swapping.

Because I don’t enjoy bfa survival for the exact same reasons I’ve stated in my above post.

Have you even played BFA survival? Because, again, your hunter isn’t visible on any of the tracking sites, and most of them still pick up 0 CR 0 XP alts.
All I can see are your 3 rogues, two named Highkickx, and one named Mirtea, man.

One of the Highkickx toons is in blues and has never queued a match, and is still visible. Your hunter should be too if it’s been played at all during BFA. If it has not been played at all in BFA, I question how you’re so sure of the playstyle.

The fact that you are citing literally one person should hurt your argument more than mine. We’ve all seen stories of successful painters with missing arms who have learnt to draw with their toes. To see that and say it’s viable to be a painter using your toes would be delusional.

Hog’s not the only example of someone getting glad with a spec that isn’t S tier, he’s just a hunter & arena forums meme, and I mean that with a lot of love. Hog is the only BM hunter I give a pass.

yikes

I was the rogue in RMD and RMP for most of Wrath and Cata
The gameplay of that comp is incredibly pve oriented now, and the very slow mouse-turning clips on your twitch channel are a great demonstration of that.

I cannot imagine someone denying the fact that RMP has been problematically easy for the past two expansions with a straight face, lol.

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Yes but despite all your blabbering your highest is 1750 in 3s and 2000 in 2s so…

I just find it amusing that you have to speak for other people’s experience because you have nothing to speak from your own.

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I find it amusing that you won’t tell me your hunter’s name or which toon you claim to be 3k xp on, because they’re definitely not visible on your profile here:
https://check-pvp.fr/us/Proudmoore/Highkickx

I’ve got a variety of reasons for being very complacent about sticking around 2k range; for one, I’m hearing impaired, which makes partner synergy a bit more difficult, especially as a class with skillshot CC that can absolutely be broken by poor team coordination.
For two? I’m on an RP-PVP server with a big history of world pvp, and there aren’t achievements to track how creative you are in world pvp. Arena simply isn’t as interesting as it once was. Removing teams was a huge mistake for the arena community. It’s far less engaging to trawl through LFG and btag looking for partners than to be forced into developing synergy with your teammates because of sunk cost.

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But gladiator doesn’t require voice comms at all so Im not sure how your impairment has to do with anything.

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/us/daggerspine/highkix

here’s the link to my hunter. I guess the highest I’ve gotten on it is duelist for the weapon enchant and then I couldnt be arsed because of how boring it was, but I guess its still higher than your hunter.

72

It’s almost like RMP is PVE, eh?
:upside_down_face:

here’s the link to my hunter. I guess the highest I’ve gotten on it is duelist for the weapon enchant and then I couldnt be arsed because of how boring it was, but I guess its still higher than your hunter.

sooo…in other words you were exaggerating about being a multiglad while listing hunter among the classes you’re a glad on, while also exaggerating yourself as 3k XP when you’re actually 2700 xp on two rogues.

I gotcha, chief. I also tell white lies on the internet to bolster my position!

You’re not a “3k xp hunter”, you’re an 1800/2100/0 xp hunter, and I’m a 2000/1800/2100 xp hunter.

I’m sure you think my preferring RBGs over 3s makes me a lesser lifeform or something rather than more honestly realizing it’s just a demonstration of preferences; I don’t get to knock people off of cliffs in arena, and that’s boring to my WPVP troll persona.

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I kinda wanna hear your explanation as to why RMP is PVE. I’m sure youll say some nonsensical gibberish but I just wanna get a good laugh at it.

And yeah I guess the highest I got rating wise was 2.8 on my second rogue(mirtea) but the mmr value kept showing 3k near season’s end so whatever? Being ~2.8 in legion & early bfa would mean easily over 3k in the heavily inflated last season of bfa lol. I just find it funny that you call survival hunter cc-oriented and call RMP pve but please, humor me and give me your explanation.

I wouldn’t even go that far, seeing how you have 200 games played in 2s in the most inflated season the game has ever witnessed and still are sub-1800. Yet my cloak-lvl-1-and-no-corruption-and-no-drest-and-no-bike-and-no-gem alt rogue(Mirtea) just casually played less games and have a higher rating.

Oh and just so you know, yeah it doesn’t matter what class/spec/comp you play, gladiator isnt even remotely close to requiring voice comms to achieve.

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You’re hard of hearing, huh? Neat. I’m profoundly deaf myself.

While you’re right in that we face an obstacle set up by the player-made “requirement” of voice chat, it’s not an impossible obstacle to overcome.

My sister, who is severe-to-profoundly deaf (she’s got a tiny bit more hearing than me), plays on Area 52 in the Deaf raiding guild, Undaunted. She was part of the mythic raiding team that got Cutting Edge on mythic N’Zoth (WoWHead reported on this a couple times. Even shared the reaction video. My sister was the first reaction shown, and she was the one who literally twirled around in joy when they got N’Zoth).

I suppose my point is… it’s one thing to honestly and factually say, “I face an obstacle here,” but I don’t like seeing people implying that they don’t really try hard to overcome the obstacle and/or use it as an excuse for not trying in the first place.

Now, if you’re genuinely content with your rating, that’s cool. If I’m genuinely not a competitive person, that’s cool.

What I don’t like is seeing fellow hard-of-hearing or deaf people use their hearing loss as an excuse.

And now, I shall go back to lurking and enjoying this animated discussion.

75

PVE while HoH is a much easier accomplishment than PVP while HoH, in part due to the baseline maturity of most raiders compared to most arena players; there’s a whooooole lot of people in PVP LFG that peaked in highschool and proudly show it off. With that comes a lot of anger issues and projection about faults on losses, but also because PVE is a more cooperative and less combative venue than PVP. I had no trouble raiding at a high level in Wrath and Cata, but I stopped finding raid schedules enjoyable back in MoP.

I’m perfectly capable of pushing higher than I do, it’s simply a cost/benefit scenario; none of the rewards over 2100 actually interest me, because I do not wear tabards and would not ride a glad mount over my blue rocket, nor would I replace my Prospector title with any other title.

I care more about my character’s aesthetic than showing off my skill with trophies, particularly being on an RP server where the majority of my interactions are with people who already know how good I am or am not. This 2100 enchant will be replaced by that swirly-green-orb-of-death necrolord themed enchant as soon as I’ve got the covenant resources to buy it.

76

I love how you’re acting like this is an uncommon opinion. Are you one of those rare arena players on the forums that has never once used the arena forums?
I’d love to hear you explain how RMP CC with gpie damage is anything but PVE content.
I’ve seen players go from 1800 XP to 2700 XP with ease by rerolling to assassination or fire respectively. Most people have. It’s why the BFA glad drakes are more common than most TCG mounts are.

Let’s check out some threads and search terms:
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/question-for-high-rating-rogues-are-we-a-braindead-class/631068

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/search?q=RMP%20category%3A21

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/search?q=survival%20hunter%20skillcap%20category%3A21%20order%3Alatest

The things I’m saying are not rare opinions, you have simply prevented yourself from hearing what the majority of the pvp community, including actual R1 players, have to say about the state of comp balance.

And yeah I guess the highest I got rating wise was 2.8 on my second rogue(mirtea) but the mmr value kept showing 3k near season’s end so whatever? Being ~2.8 in legion & early bfa would mean easily over 3k in the heavily inflated last season of bfa lol. I just find it funny that you call survival hunter cc-oriented and call RMP pve but please, humor me and give me your explanation.

might have something to do with the fact that rogue/mage synergy is extremely high, and one element of RMP CC is a spammable ability, whereas traps have a fairly long cooldown and are far more punishing when failed?
Surv having one of the highest skillcaps in pvp is very well agreed upon on the arena forums, and is also demonstrated by your own hunter being 600 xp lower than your rogues.

I wouldn’t even go that far, seeing how you have 200 games played in 2s in the most inflated season the game has ever witnessed and still are sub-1800.

One, almost all of those games were played early in the season before either inflation or extremely high amounts of corruption were in play
Two, I mostly queue double dps in 2s to help friends cap their points, the only rated content I’ve been active in in BFA is RBGs in Season 1; I’ve spent far more hours being an absolute menace on Mechagon Island than I have queueing BFA arenas with their each-season-is-somehow-worse-than-the-last model.
Unless you’ve ever played on ED, you probably won’t understand. We’re not like most servers. We still have a strong sense of community and thus go out of our way to hunt each other down; something that hasn’t really been a thing on normal servers since sharding and cross-realm became a thing.

yet my cloak-lvl-1-and-no-corruption-and-no-drest-and-no-bike-and-no-gem alt rogue(Mirtea) just casually played less games and have a higher rating.

All you’re telling me with this is that you know a well geared mage. Rogues being able to excel while doing negative damage is not a new thing. There was a period in Cata where sub was viable while literally doing more self-healing via recuperate than it did DPS. Rogues have always been the setup wheel for the mage, and RMP tends to be vastly over-represented on the ladder when both classes are pumping damage for that very reason.

Oh and just so you know, yeah it doesn’t matter what class/spec/comp you play, gladiator isnt even remotely close to requiring voice comms to achieve.

Calling out your traps when playing a hunter is vastly more important than calling out sheeps in RMP, because traps are not a spammable ability, and the consequences of breaking it early are higher than the DR cost of a second poly.
There’s a reason your hunter is far lower XP than your rogues, and it’s not because you “got bored of it”, but because survival has the highest skillcap to play effectively. Most people have no problem admitting this. It’s much easier to tell a good hunter from a bad one than it is to tell a good rogue from a bad one; we can thank the existence of vanish protection mechanics for that.

I’d brag on how much fun vanishing deathbolts in Wrath was and how rewarding it felt, but I suspect you genuinely won’t know what I’m referring to when I say that.

I eagerly await your explanation of how someone like Dillon is wrong in his assessment about the rogue skillcap. That’ll be a fun cope to read.

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K you did give me a good laugh so I’ll give you my perspective on each point you’ve made.

The fact that you think mages run gpie in rmp is just hilarious. Another indication that shows just how out of touch you actually are with in-game pvp.

So somehow you’ve done all the background checks, even went to my twitch channel and yet you don’t even know the spec I play and call it pve? I do love people making groundless assumptions

This is the priest friend I played with on my alt that got me a higher rating of 2s than you.
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/us/tichondrius/tópaz
So again, I played a cloak-lvl-1-and-no-corruption-and-no-drest-and-no-bike-and-no-gem-sub rogue with a 12% versat, 380k health gnome disc priest. What was that about knowing a well geared mage? Again, I do love seeing people make groundless assumptions.

Why? You don’t know there are addons to track its cd? Just have the feral maim the kill target, intimidate/grapple trap while the priest MC’s the third target. How could any of this possibly require voice to coordinate? You litreally just do it every 30 seconds or 60 seconds if you wait for intimidate. In fact trap’s cd is naturally longer than its own DR so you literally need 0 thought put into it when it comes to DRing your cc. Survival is one of the classes that actually don’t have to look at DR trackers at all LOL

I really do love how you say you don’t care about achievements/trophies when it comes to yourself, but you keep citing these rank 1 super top high rated players to make any sort of argument. It’s almost as if you care alot about achievements/trophies :s

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The fact you’re pretending zero mages played gpie in RMP during BFA makes me think you didn’t even play your own character. Gpie is not mandatory in RMP, but it is by no means uncommon.

So somehow you’ve done all the background checks, even went to my twitch channel and yet you don’t even know the spec I play and call it pve? I do love people making groundless assumptions

I find it highly unlikely you were playing sub all of BFA, especially considering that you were 2200 in S4, not 2700. I’m aware that you are currently sub.

This is the priest friend I played with on my alt that got me a higher rating of 2s than you.

DPS/healer in 2s is more viable than queueing random double dps comps to help your RP server friends cap conquest?
Wow, man, that’s actually so shocking and unexpected! :rofl:

Why? You don’t know there are addons to track its cd? Just have the feral maim the kill target, intimidate/grapple trap while the priest MC’s the third target. How could any of this possibly require voice to coordinate? You litreally just do it every 30 seconds or 60 seconds if you wait for intimidate. In fact trap’s cd is naturally longer than its own DR so you literally need 0 thought put into it when it comes to DRing your cc. Survival is one of the classes that actually don’t have to look at DR trackers at all LOL

Thanks for making the point for me that modern pvp is extremely boring and formulaic? This is literally why most of the arena community has gone casual. It’s not the engaging gameplay that it used to be.

Do you even remember having to manage your combo points before redirect was a thing, let alone combo points being assigned to the target rather than the rogue?

Considering most of your achievements date from 2014 or later, I think it’s safe to say you don’t really know what you’re talking about when you put down Wrath and Cata glads, especially when you seem to think that shadowmourne and daggers were around for the entirety of their respective expansions.
Should we even talk about how much differently rating functions now than it did back in the day? 2100 in 2009 was a lot higher than 2100 is in 2020. The 2700 achievement wasn’t even introduced to the game until Cataclysm.

In fact trap’s cd is naturally longer than its own DR so you literally need 0 thought put into it when it comes to DRing your cc.

Since when has watching DR been a difficult task?
Trap is a skillshot. Skillshots are by far the most punishing CCs to mess up. This is not a rare opinion. A missed trap can cost a game far more easily than a broken poly can, and if you pretend that’s untrue, I know you’re being intellectually dishonest to preserve your fragile ego.

I really do love how you say you don’t care about achievements/trophies when it comes to yourself, but you keep citing these rank 1 super top high rated players to make any sort of argument. It’s almost as if you care alot about achievements/trophies :sa :

Or…it’s almost like I simply don’t respect rogue gladiators with egos who repeatedly lie about their experience to make themselves seem bigger than they are. I’ve played this game for the better part of 15 years, you’re by no means the first middling glad I’ve seen misrepresent himself as something he’s not.

Dillon is one of the most well known players in this game, not just as a multiglad hunter, but as a Blizzcon participant & analyst. I’m sorry that you’re booty-bothered that the majority of actual multi-glads don’t respect RMP as much as you expected them to.

A decade ago, RMP and RMD were high skillcap and respectable comps with reputations for being strong when played correctly.
Not anymore.

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Oh you find it highly unlikely that I play an unconventional spec, even though few posts were ago you were talking about how BM can be trash tier and still have players for it in rated pvp. Hm so you have a double standard when it comes to hunters and rogues. Crazy how literally all of my vods that were pre-patch were also sub. Hm.

Oh so we are talking about my CR now. Yeah I tanked to that rating to play with a mage friend who came back like 3 weeks before the end of s4. You should look him up since you took the effort of checking my vods. During season he had 7% versat, 400k health, no corruption, no gems, rank 5 cloak, and not even reaping flames so he had to take Focused Azerite Beam as major essence and we still ended the season at 2350 rating. If anything I’d say that’s a pretty impressive feat, even more impressive than being a generic 2700+ RMP.

I don’t think you get my point here. I was playing a non-geared sub rogue with a non-geared disc priest, both literally sitting under 400k health during season. My point is I could have played with a LFR geared MM hunter or demonology warlock and still get higher rating than you. Because that rating has NOTHING to do with comp matchup.

So a few posts ago you said you don’t feel like pushing past 2k because you can’t be bothered to be in comms…because you have hearing issues… etc etc… and now you are saying it’s formulaic. So if it’s as formulaic as you are now suggesting then why did you even say anything about voice communications in the first place? Call me crazy but it’s almost as if you keep shifting your reasoning based on convenience.

Yeah I wouldn’t be surprised if a 1750 mmr hunter threw traps across 40 yards even though you are never supposed to.

Because let me guess, sub rogues pve their way to gladiator every season right? :smiley:

Again you played this game for so long, experienced such glorious old days but at no point whatsoever did you decide to push past 1750 in 3s rating. Not in wrath, not in cata, not in mop.

Honestly it’s the same mentality in every game, not just WoW. Gold rated players would say they are as skilled as diamond rated players in League of Legends, Overwatch, and the list goes on. Common thing about them is they’ve never reached the higher rankings and the only option left to them is downplay the skill levels of players at said higher rankings, so that they can feel equal.

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The fact you can get 2.2k Cr with zero corruption and cloak with Rogue/Mage speaks volumes to the notion that Rogue and Mage were literally the easiest class to get Glad I’m apart from Destro this xpac. The fact you’re even bragging about your CR as a rogue player who couldn’t climb until Legion and played in probably the most inflated season in the history of the game to get glad is absolute cringe. Next time just be humble. Glad rogues were piloted by their class, not their awareness or skill. The fact that every other class you’ve played is literally hundreds of CR below your rogue is a testimony to this.

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