So I came across a blue post and thought I would share it with you


(Hadrimmdar) #33

or doesn’t have the skill as I suspect in a certain someone’s case :smirk:


#34

As most pointed out already, you’re talking what I said about a specific thing out of context, while there is some merit of it that can be applied to Mythic+ it was mainly for static difficult content like the Mage Tower that is supposed to be difficult.

There is some merit to the weekly affixes not providing equal weeks of difficulty, this is something hard overall to combat, no matter how you tune them there are going to be easier weeks than others just with the nature of how M+ works. We try our best to tune them though and its a constant iterative process.

It sounds like most of your issues are not from difficulty of content but rather social, players leaving or mad about dps over mechanics so I don’t get the point of quoting the original post or my quote.

As for your Shaman bit at the end, the recent 8.1 tuning has made Shamans more than viable in Mythic+ in all specs. I mean Ele cleave for M+ is quite strong and Resto seems to have a fairly decent representation in 10+ keys. I haven’t had any issue with any shaman in a 10 or higher since 8.1 at least in my experience.

There is some truth to what your saying about some of the social issues you’ve encountered that have made M+ difficult but that difficulty doesn’t seem to be from the content based on your post.


(Aelora) #35

Played this game since Classic, and been a gamer all my life. There are people who are WAY better at this than I will ever hope to be, and I’m perfectly okay with that. Doesn’t mean I can’t challenge myself and work towards whatever goals, but I will NOT be a professional eSports guy, simply because I don’t have the hand/eye coordination.

I’m okay if there are people with shiny rewards and kudos for their extra effort. I get salty when people use that as an excuse to completely exclude others from any content. On a side note, I also have serious questions about “skill” when zerging through Mythics against a timer. I’d so much rather see it be objective oriented.


#36

If that affix balance and tuning we see is your best, you have failed, horribly.

Fortified+Teeming is probably 10 times harder than any other affix combo when it comes to beating timer.


#37

As for your Shaman bit at the end, the recent 8.1 tuning has made Shamans more than viable in Mythic+ in all specs. I mean Ele cleave for M+ is quite strong and Resto seems to have a fairly decent representation in 10+ keys. I haven’t had any issue with any shaman in a 10 or higher since 8.1 at least in my experience.

I don’t mean to harp on you not specifically mentioning enhance. But I am constantly getting told enhance doesn’t bring enough cleave to be invited to a group. Note, not a mention of my skill, but of the class itself. I am pretty good at enhance, i am pretty bad at ele. But my god can ele do some amazing cleave and aoe dmg. Enhance… um… no? I get that there is and should be differences, but the gap seems too wide, no?


#38

Right now that’s an issue with the perception of Shamans. numbers wise shamans can put them up, both Elemental and Enhancement, however the perception of Shamans in 8.0 has led to you guys into having a harder time when in reality you’re perfectly viable. I wish I had a solution to this right now but its something we’re aware of and know it becomes a problem if a class is known as “struggling”. One of those unfortunate WoW things when it comes to community discussion on viability that has existed since Vanilla.

Little off topic from OPs original post but just letting you know its something we’re aware of.


Community perception of classes
I feel bad for Shamans
No ilvl 400 for Horde, goodbye Blizzard
#39

I’ve run M+10+ w/ Ele shamans and they can own the damage meters.

Waycrest should never take 2 heals, just requires your group to interrupt the active sister at every cast. Also requires your group to not stand in place and get tons of stacks of the debuff on sister 2.


#40

I feel like this is an issue with the community, not shamans in general. Group comp really doesnt start impacting the key heavily until you push like +14’s or higher (unless you’re running like 3 warlocks or something rediculous). I’ve seen crazy good Enh shamans.

Is Ele better right now? Yes. But I’d still put enhancement in the top 3 melee dps after DH and WW monk because of all the utility they bring (hard CC, stuns, slows, short interrupt, earth elemental, etc).


(Varrow) #41

Maybe listen to the feedback that is given constantly from some of the best players in the world? When I read the WoWhead posts that did state of classes, and even the reddit stuff it seemed like some great feedback.

It also seemed like very reasonable and balanced feedback. Not asking for super buffs or whatever. Community perception is very hard to change, but the issues are always pretty darn clear months before it launches. I personally don’t quite understand why we always find ourselves in this situation.


(Amine) #42

I don’t like this idea that they only listen to the best players in the world. The best players in the world very often are only interested in how their class/spec does in their content, nothing else really matters to them as much. So if they listen to them then all the other players out there have to put up with class/spec are tend to be only decent in that one activity.


#43

I feel like this is an issue with the community, not shamans in general. Group comp really doesnt start impacting the key heavily until you push like +14’s or higher (unless you’re running like 3 warlocks or something rediculous). I’ve seen crazy good Enh shamans.
Is Ele better right now? Yes. But I’d still put enhancement in the top 3 melee dps after DH and WW monk because of all the utility they bring (hard CC, stuns, slows, short interrupt, earth elemental, etc).

This is encouraging; guess i’ll have to try to find wtf i am doing wrong. I’m sitting at 10-12 keys right now, and it does feel like my cleave falls off considerably compared to the mage, rogue, or ww monk i play with.


(Surge) #44

I mean, I don’t think it’s a huge secret that this is what’s driving community perception:

(can’t include links, so remove the space)
warcraftlogs. com/zone/statistics/19
warcraftlogs .com/zone/statistics/20#class=DPS

In particular, enhancement sits in that cluster of specs at the bottom that are some 3-5% behind the primary “pack” in UIdir and perhaps ~6-8% behind in m+, and it ranks 13 out of 13 for melee dps specs overall in both settings. Plus, we don’t bring anything strong/unique like battle shout or physical/magic debuff that encourages you to bring warrior/monk/demon hunter even if their numbers aren’t the best (not like demon hunters have to worry about that, though).

The solution to such a perception would seem to point you toward the spec tuning auras, though it probably doesn’t help that some of the best-performing melee DPS in terms of throughput are also highly desired for m+ for their utility (rogues, demon hunters), and at the end of the day you only have so much room to slot melee dps.


(Hazzulu) #45

Your “answer” isn’t related to his lack of a solution. He starts off by saying Enh numbers are actually fine from what he can tell and the reason they aren’t brought to groups is due to people still viewing them through the lens of 8.0 and not giving them a chance since their 8.1 improvements. He has no solution for this issue of perception.

Reading/listening to feedback and implementing more changes doesn’t change the community’s perception of them. Unless you mean to say to buff them to the point where that perception is forcefully change immediately, the point at which they would be overpowered.


(Varrow) #46

All of the issues, including poor tuning, were definitely pointed out months and months before the release during Alpha. That’s when they needed to listen.


(Surge) #47

I understood that perfectly fine, and I’m merely saying that the community doesn’t have any evidence indicating that it’s true (thus, the perception).


#48

That is a bit discouraging. I mean, you can see the perception there with the number of dh, rogue, frost mage, druid, bm hunter parses compared to everyone else. But to still be that low compared to other classes, makes me feel i’m not alone.


(Surge) #49

More generally (i.e. pulling away from specifically enhancement):

The design philosophy of correcting +/- 10-20% dps discrepancies with ~3-6% aura adjustments in order to “reduce the size of the gap” but absolutely never change the ordering of specs is probably another good place to look at for why specs that start out an expansion in the dumpster never end up having said perception corrected.


(Aehl) #50

Sorry Rastlin, disagree. No one is excluded from mythic. I’ve done mythic Taloc (admittedly he’s the easiest of all of them) , the rest are skill at a level I dont have. If I wanted to, I COULD hammer out with practice and do the rest, it just doesnt appeal to me.

(What I have achieved this tier has both amazed and delighted me…maybe you can teach an old dog new tricks…)

No one is excluded from mythic, you just have to go that extra mile and hone your skills.


(Aehl) #51

Addons are not cheating in any sense, Rastlin.


(Släshcry) #52

Looking at the keys you have completed - there are plenty of priests who have cleared higher who don’t have your stringent requirements.

To be totally honest - any +10 key can be completed by any class provided they have gear, ability, and coordination. If you’re just rolling your face on the keyboard and not coordinating interrupts, stuns, etc - yeah, you’ll hit roadblocks much sooner.

And I would say that M+ is really a lot more about skill. Right now I think you can find basically every spec has completed every dungeon at a +15 (could be wrong). Is it harder than some other group comps? Sure. But unless you’ve hit that ceiling you have no real foot to stand on here.

Also, it takes knowledge to know what dungeons are best with which keys.