Oh right. Of course. Blizzard is hard at work ridding the forums of all these anti-layering posts. We know this to be true because if you search the forums they’re pretty much void of any layering posts.
![:laughing:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/laughing.png?v=6" ":laughing:")
![:rofl:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/rofl.png?v=6" ":rofl:")
![:joy:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/joy.png?v=6" ":joy:")
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Hm I guess I wasn’t concise, Layering doesn’t effect me (or anyone) as much as people say it will. It’s probably only going to be around for the first month (definitely wont make it to phase 2). It wont have enough time to mature all of the problems that people have with it, that’s why blizzard has ignored, for the most part, any backlash from this decision.
But the analogy is perfect because people reaalllyy hate mosquitoes, especially where I am, and passionate anger breeds the most hostility.
I see your point, Blizzard has never deleted comments that they don’t like
Ahh I see your point. ![:+1:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/+1.png?v=6" ":+1:")
yeah i’m honestly just bored outta my mind waiting for classic and the forums don’t move fast enough ;D.
probably wouldn’t know what to do if there weren’t a million threads about layering.
Thanks for noticing. It lessened the boredom <3
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Oh but they have!
And you know why they’re called “Blizzard”? It’s because they’re primarily responsible for guarding the Arctic circle from the public. The Arctic circle, also known as THE EDGE OF THE FLAT EARTH!!!
You don’t even know how deep this goes, man. The layering cover-up is just barely scratching the surface.
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You think that’s crazy? You should Google “Blizzard flat Earth”.
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Lol I love how this is flagged as trolling. Another reason RCR is a terrible idea.
I agree. Definitely just feels like a way to unload support duties on the community just to save money.
An itchy mosquito bite is still a bad thing.
Objectively false. Hell, there’s at least one in this thread:
We gave alternate solutions that didn’t affect the game.
Yeah, that’s a pretty pathetic argument.
We know layering is happening. That’s our complaint.
It is.
You will notice. Whether it bothers you or not is a different story.
Or when others do it, or when the system forces you into another layer to balance the population of the layers to counteract people swapping between them.
Objectively false.
I’ve already rebutted these points before.
Funny, I was thinking that same argument applies to you pro-layering folks.
If not having layering is a thing that truly bother you, maybe Classic isn’t for you. Just because you don’t like vanilla doesn’t mean you should advocate for Blizzard to ruin it for those of who do.
Most people don’t have a problem with ensuring a successful launch and preventing dead realms.
We just don’t want the solution they come up with to be one that changes the game or affects gameplay.
And then after a couple days, the queues are gone and their rage subsides.
Which is what led to BfA. See the problem?
Classic is meant to be a recreation of vanilla. If it’s not meant for a group of dedicated vanilla fans, I don’t know what the point is.
A temporary nuisance that doesn’t need to be implemented in the first place.
This whole “it’s temporary” is a really weak argument. If you got kicked in the nuts every day for a week straight, would it really be any consolation during that time to know it’ll stop by day 8?
I was at every single expansion launch. They’re usually some of the best experiences I’ve had. The absolute worst queue I’ve ever seen and been in was on Tichondrius during WoD’s launch. 20k+ queues. I got in within an hour.
That wait is well worth not having layering.
So the fact people aren’t willing to wait in a queue to play a game has nothing to do with not being able to handle a bit of delayed gratification? Really?
This doesn’t really matter, since they’re connecting to different regions, anyway.
No one is saying they shouldn’t use their modern server infrastructure. They’re saying they should implement its capabilities in a way that doesn’t change the game or affect gameplay.
No layering doesn’t mean too many realms. No layering means no layering; same number of realms.
The best part about queues? If the tourists pack up and leave quickly because of the queues, the queues will be gone even more quickly.
The past 7 years have all been the more recent expansions, wherein realm population is totally meaningless because practically everything is cross-realm.
If you meant every expansion launch, that’s because people resub to see if the game is better yet, experience that it isn’t, then unsub again.
Layering doesn’t prevent that at all, actually. At best, you could argue it’s meant to mitigate the effects of it, and even then, “no layering” handles that just fine.
Once all the tourists leave, the queues are gone and the realms are at a healthy population.
Which is clearly what they should’ve done in the first place instead of layering.
Wait for the tourists to leave, add realms as necessary afterwards.
Imagine that. A cap of 3,000 and there were still dead realms. How does indirectly raising that cap prevent dead realms if there were dead realms with just 3,000?
The answer to this ‘problem’ of dead realms (as if no one actually likes lower population realms) is to just not overreact and add too many realms.
Moving into phase 1 with multiple layers will not be good, but people seem content to just write phase 1 away.
If the exact same issues that are trying to be prevented in phase 1 with layering persist in the later phases, what argument against layering do you have, exactly?
As others have pointed out, the game only grew in vanilla, rather significantly in fact, yet there were still “dead” realms.
Do you actually want to know, or is this a rhetorical question to indicate you know how layering works and don’t believe it to be a problem?
Nostalrius’s launch wasn’t even remotely close to Blizzlike. We don’t want a launch like that either, fun as it may have been.
The realm cap should be what it was in vanilla.
That’s one reason, sure. There’s also world PvP, immersion, community building, and so on.
The biggest reason, though, which honestly should be enough for anyone who actually wants vanilla: it wasn’t in vanilla.
If you need a reason other than that, you never wanted vanilla in the first place. I’d say Classic isn’t for you, in that case, but Blizzard seems keen on making their recreation of vanilla appeal less and less to actual fans of vanilla and more to people who want something close to vanilla.
PvP realms are a thing.
They do disappear from the world around you, actually. I’m pretty they had something similar to layering, wherein you could choose the shard you wanted to play in.
That’s what’s going to happen. You can be invited to another layer, or forcibly swapped to balance layer populations.
Yes, and so have the players with beta, or access to any of the stress tests.
If they join a group on another layer, yes.
No, we’re not. Beta is over.
89 * 3,000 = 267,000 players able to concurrently play.
2,000,000 - 267,000 = 1,733,000
1,733,000 / 89 = 19k queues on each realm.
This is during launch. Keep in mind there will likely never be 2,000,000 people all trying to log in at the same time ever again.
Estimated 70% of players are tourists who will quit.
2,000,000 * 0.3 = 600,000
600,000 / 89 = 6,741.
3,000 per realm, 3,741 people in queue per realm.
267,000 people playing concurrently, 332,949 people in queue.
That seems perfectly reasonable, given that those 600,000 players will likely not be all on at the same time.
If we’re really expecting 1-2 million people, 89 realms might actually be too many. Given the numbers, you should probably want 2-3x as many people in queue as playing, since not actually all of the 30% left over will all be playing at once.
Yeah, didn’t really make his point very well.
No one is asking for anything remotely close to that with layering.
“No layering” would be the equivalent of “Hey, please don’t bring a jar of mosquitos into our house.”
Do you also think it’s extreme that people would abandon Classic over queues? Wouldn’t “Realistically the best thing to do if you so passionately hate queues is to just wait it out.” be a valid response to those people?
To be fair, there’s not even enough people on beta to fill a single realm. If not for the fact they purposely downscaled it, it’d never happen in the first place.
I wasn’t aware the people on the forums are the only ones with opinions.
It affects you as much as people say it will. The question is whether or not how it affects you is something you view as a problem.
If you don’t think how it affects you is a problem, that’s fine. We disagree.
If you think it does affect anyone in the way we say it will, you’re just lying.
That doesn’t make it okay. I have no idea why people think a bad thing is acceptable if it’s for a short time. Wouldn’t you rather not have a bad thing at all?
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There is a difference between wanting layering and wanting the best possible solution to be implemented, which happens to be layering. I support layering myself, but I don’t “want it”. It’s just the least offensive possibility on the table.
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Blizzard has stated explicitly that they are not recreating the launch experience. By this reasoning, they’d need to launch enough servers to meet demand. Knowingly driving people away by testing how dedicated they really are through excessive queues is a terrible strategy.
Expect tourists to leave, but hope that plenty stay.
Sure, but you said:
Or do you not know what “pro-” means?
Then you are, by definition, pro-layering.
That’s nice, but the person I quoted literally said they wanted it. Unless “I want layering” doesn’t mean “I want layering?”
I didn’t say anything about recreating the launch experience, so I don’t care.
I just want the game how it was. If they want to prevent queues and dead realms down the line, I’m all for it, but they need to find a solution that doesn’t change the game.
It’s not about testing how dedicated they are. We just want the game how it was in vanilla.
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I meant past 7 years re: private servers. Scriptcraft/Qgaming/ED/RB/Vgaming/valkyrie/kronos/nost/etc. I don’t know how retail’s managed because I haven’t subbed prior to this since one summer in WoTLK when I came back for the launch.
Prevention is the same as mitigation to me. I do think it mitigates the problem and I think that the risk of letting some servers die is too great to go without some protective measures.
World pvp
I’d actually love it if people de-layered when they saw me riding towards them. Can you imagine the smack I’d talk on the forums if people literally abused game mechanics to escape my axe? People’s reputations would be ruined forever.
I don’t see it affecting retail too much though. I didn’t see it happen often/at all on the beta servers back when they were populated.
Immersion
I’m not a RPer. I drink coffee and listen to music while I play. I have zero immersion. It’s not a big deal for me and I’d wager it’s not for most people. Especially when the bigger deal to me is playing on a dead server.
Community Building
I always see this brought up and yet I don’t see why. You know what’s awful for community building? Crossrealm battlegrounds. People love those though, and yet they destroy what was to me the best part of the community. The rivalries and friendships built through fighting. CRBGs are permanent, layering is temporary. Where is the outrage?
There’s plenty of stuff that wasn’t in vanilla that’s being placed in. Flight path dismounting, paladins having 15 minute greater blessings in MC, 1.12 itemization with 1.3 PvE content.
The difference between me and other people who complain about that stuff is that I understand that at the end of the day–it won’t make a real difference.
Layering will not significantly affect the economy (DM/Maraudon farming is far more harmful than any effects that will come from layering)
Layering will not significantly affect PvP as player’s own egos will keep them in check
Layering will not harm the community, as it’s going away by phase 2 and the layers are approximately the size of a server in either case.
Point being, you’re not getting a layerless, queue filled launch. They actually want people playing on the 26th/27th and seeing how great the game is.
Oh but it is. When I see plenty saying things like “If they are really dedicated, they’ll deal with waiting in queues”, that says to me that many of the no layering crowd wants Classic to be some sort of exclusive club.
I know EXACTLY how BfA came to be.
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Ah, a rivet counter. You guys do more damage to the hobby for the sake of a “authentic” experience.
I was going to argue back, but if you have nothing substantive to discuss it just isn’t worth my time. If you want to argue semantics all day long, you and my old friend Bill can knock yourselves out.
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Oh. I don’t care about private servers.
Then you don’t know the meaning of either word.
Which is not justification for more stuff being added.
Murder is not okay just because other people have been murdered.
For what it’s worth, I don’t approve of ANY changes, good or bad.
Not really a change, since that’s how the buffs were in 1.12, and we’re getting 1.12.
The whole “which patch” issue is an entirely different argument than something that was NEVER in vanilla.
Well, it does make a difference. The question is whether or not you think that difference is worth complaining about.
1.12 itemization and balancing has a rather significant impact.
Objectively false.
Depending on what you consider “significantly.” I’d think being able to avoid it entirely by asking for an invite to another layer, or to appear on top of targets without having to get to that position first, is significant.
Well, that’s just wrong. The community needs to be able to see itself to interact with itself. Being layered off will most certainly have an affect on the community’s ability to even form in the first place.
It doesn’t harm the community so much as it inhibits its ability to even form.
That doesn’t mean it didn’t affect the community in phase 1.
Yep, that’s the complaint.
Not sure why you pro-layering folks think “you’re getting layering” is a valid response to our complaint that we’re getting layering. We know we’re getting layering; that’s what we’re complaining about.
People will be playing on the launch day with or without layering.
What layering aims to do is allow all of them to play at the same time.
We don’t want it to be some sort of exclusive club; we just want the club to remain how it was back in the day.
We’re not trying to exclude anyone. Everyone is welcome to try the game; we’d just like it if people who aren’t fans of it don’t ask for Blizzard to change it.
Then why are you advocating for changes?
Sure. That’s the point of Classic. To recreate vanilla.
I don’t care about the experience. I care about the game being authentic.
Whatever helps you sleep at night. There’s plenty of substance to my argument.
You’re the one that wanted to argue semantics, not me. Or have you already forgotten how the conversation went?
Let me remind you:
^ Here’s you arguing semantics.
As you would say… if you want to argue semantics all day long, you and my old friend Bill can knock yourselves out.
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