Sick of the Layering posts, Actiblizz? Get rid of it

[Thundertotem-blackwater-raiders (Thundertotem)]

I don’t care about the experience. I care about the game being authentic.

yeah…

You don’t care if it damages the brand and the hobby. As long as it’s “authentic”.

[Dealloc-dethecus (Dealloc)]

Wouldn’t “Realistically the best thing to do if you so passionately hate queues is to just wait it out.” be a valid response to those people?

Queues are kind of hard to miss. They’re very noticeable. Layering will never be noticed by your average player.

Big difference.

[Ohshiftson-area-52]

You don’t care if it damages the brand and hobby. As long as it’s “authentic”.

No, I just disagree that actually providing people what they want is harmful.

We asked for vanilla. We want vanilla.

Layering will never be noticed by your average player.

Uh huh. You must have a pretty low opinion of the average player.

I mean, I’m a bit of an elitist myself and even I think the average player could tell when they’re being phased into another layer.

[Dealloc-dethecus (Dealloc)]

I mean, I’m a bit of an elitist myself and even I think the average player could tell when they’re being phased into another layer.

Sure. But how often will that happen? I’d imagine it’s impossible to interact with players on other layers without whispering them directly.

I’d guess many/most players will never switch layers.

[Thundertotem-blackwater-raiders (Thundertotem)]

We asked for vanilla. We want vanilla.

And we’ll destroy Vanilla/Classic to get what we want. You’ll burn it all down just to get a “authentic” experience.

[Ironsides-stormreaver (Ironsides)]

Oh. I don’t care about private servers.

You should, as the one thing that will be the same on private servers as it will be on retail is the players involved. Their behavior has been consistent for a long time, it would be wrong to think now it will change.

Then you don’t know the meaning of either word.

I think you’re just arguing semantics at this point. Preventing something would be 100% avoiding it–but that can’t be done because let’s be honest, someone will be unhappy, while mitigating something just reduces the effects of, what I see to be a 100% guarantee–flooded servers and eventual ghost servers in many cases.

They’re interchangeable to me in this regard, because the goal is to prevent dead server.

Which is not justification for more stuff being added.

Murder is not okay just because other people have been murdered.

For what it’s worth, I don’t approve of ANY changes, good or bad.

We’ll have to disagree on this point. I’m very pro capital punishment.

Not really a change, since that’s how the buffs were in 1.12, and we’re getting 1.12.

The whole “which patch” issue is an entirely different argument than something that was NEVER in vanilla.

We’re not getting 1.12, as that would imply BWL/world bosses would be open on release. The whole game being offered to us is a frankenpatch.

Well, it does make a difference. The question is whether or not you think that difference is worth complaining about.

I don’t think it’s worth complaining about.

1.12 itemization and balancing has a rather significant impact.

Not as much as you think, and I’ve done the math myself.

Objectively false.

Objectively true when you realize the damage that is done to server’s economies when people farm Maraudon/DM for hours on end. There’s a reason private servers had to make their own changes to those instances.

Depending on what you consider “significantly.” I’d think being able to avoid it entirely by asking for an invite to another layer, or to appear on top of targets without having to get to that position first, is significant.

How many layers you think there will be on a realm? 6? 7? I think 3-4 is pretty realistic. So say you’re getting attacked by another player in world pvp, you call out in /world chat “INVITE TO ANOTHER LAYER PLEASE”. You’ve got a decent chance that you don’t even switch layers (if someone even invites you by the time you die because you were too busy typing).
I don’t consider appearing on top of targets without getting to that position significant, as that only affects streamers.

Well, that’s just wrong. The community needs to be able to see itself to interact with itself. Being layered off will most certainly have an affect on the community’s ability to even form in the first place.

It doesn’t harm the community so much as it inhibits its ability to even form.

So the 3000 people on a layer can’t form a community by themselves? How do you feel about CRBGs being implemented from the get-go (as far as the honor system goes) by the way with regards to this community building?

That doesn’t mean it didn’t affect the community in phase 1.

Does it affect it positively or negatively though? it’s not quantifiable and I think most people arguing that it negatively affects the community don’t have stable ground to argue that from.
Coming from someone who played on Nost at launch and other megaservers, I felt like I only really knew my guild because there were so many faceless adventurers out there.

[Fanaomilia-kirin-tor]

It affects you as much as people say it will. The question is whether or not how it affects you is something you view as a problem.

If you don’t think how it affects you is a problem, that’s fine. We disagree.
If you think it does affect anyone in the way we say it will, you’re just lying.

That doesn’t make it okay. I have no idea why people think a bad thing is acceptable if it’s for a short time. Wouldn’t you rather not have a bad thing at all?

Because 90% of the population isn’t going to be lvl 60 in a month. “High level resources” is #1 issue people have. Yet there wont be high levels for a long amount of time, They are already implementing a CD for layer hopping. Cant switch layers mid combat so pvp is just fine, besides honor being added later. The economy on any MMO, let alone wow, never stabilize until, at the very least, 3 months from launch, when layering is long gone.

Those are what hundreds of layering posts all depict as the worst symptom of layering but they are not as severe as people proclaim.

The factual worst symptom is for the 1%ers that are going to have huge issue finding people to play with if they are way ahead of the pack and any potential others are stuck on separate layers. It wont happen if you stay near the median in terms of leveling speed.

[Hanners-emerald-dream]

That wait is well worth not having layering.

Even with layering I don’t expect to be able to play launch night. Without layering, it’s going to be literal weeks before queues get to a reasonable level, little on go away at all. And let’s say they open more servers to alleviate the queue times. How many of those people do you think are going to give up because a) Classic wasn’t for them, or b) they don’t want to wait in queue? How do you think that is going to affect those new servers?

So the fact people aren’t willing to wait in a queue to play a game has nothing to do with not being able to handle a bit of delayed gratification? Really ?

Y’all can’t have it both ways. Either you’re going to have a small subset community that is willing to put up with queues spread across many servers, or you get the opportunity to have a larger community with layering. The people that could potentially stick around are not going to with a queue, regardless of anyone else’s opinion on “instant gratification”.

This doesn’t really matter, since they’re connecting to different regions, anyway.

You also have all four timezones in the US connecting at the same time, instead of being staggered over 4 hours. And all of those at prime time, instead of 12AM. So yes, it still does matter.

Which is clearly what they should’ve done in the first place instead of layering.

Wait for the tourists to leave, add realms as necessary afterwards.

Which, again, community-wise all you’re left with is enough people patient enough to wait for weeks to actually start playing reliably. I’m willing to bet that number will not even be enough to fill a single server.

[Ohshiftson-area-52]

But how often will that happen?

Fairly often. There’s also other people phasing into different layers all around them.

I’d imagine it’s impossible to interact with players on other layers without whispering them directly.

/1 Invite me to the fun layer.

I’d guess many/most players will never switch layers.

Intentionally, maybe not. They’ll get swapped whether they want to or not.

And we’ll destroy Vanilla/Classic to get what we want.

Cute, but asking that vanilla be recreated faithfully is the exact opposite of asking for it to be destroyed.

You’ll burn it all down just to get a “authentic” experience.

Cut it out with the strawman. I don’t care about the “authentic experience.” I want the game.

They’re interchangeable to me in this regard, because the goal is to prevent dead server.

Which layering will not do.

We’ll have to disagree on this point. I’m very pro capital punishment.

I’m also pro-capital punishment. Capital punishment is not murder. Murder is the unlawful killing of one person by another.

The whole game being offered to us is a frankenpatch.

Yeah, unfortunately.

As I said, though, the whole “which patch” issue is different than something that was never in vanilla.

I don’t think it’s worth complaining about.

I’m aware.

Not as much as you think, and I’ve done the math myself.

Uh, okay. Take a look at druids’ talent trees, as just one example.

It won’t be a “significant impact” as in “we clear Molten Core twice as fast” kind of thing, but there are significant impacts made by the changes throughout vanilla’s lifecycle.

Objectively true when you realize the damage that is done to server’s economies when people farm Maraudon/DM for hours on end.

Just because something else does as much or more harm to the economy does not mean something that does less harm has had no impact on the economy.

If you think N number of layers, all full with people farming resources, mobs, questing, leveling, and such, won’t impact the economy, you’re deluding yourself.

There’s a reason private servers had to make their own changes to those instances.

Because private servers are inauthentic garbage. I’d much prefer Blizzard doesn’t provide me more of the same.

How many layers you think there will be on a realm? 6? 7?

I’d imagine whatever cap Blizzard puts on the number of layers that can be created. That number will be reached with ease.

If it weren’t, then the queues wouldn’t be as big as problem as pro-layering folks think.

You’ve got a decent chance that you don’t even switch layers (if someone even invites you by the time you die because you were too busy typing).

Or maybe you’re asking to be invited to another layer because you were already killed and are now getting camped, and you just want to continue questing peacefully on the layer where the faction balance leans more in your favor.

I don’t consider appearing on top of targets without getting to that position significant, as that only affects streamers.

It affects everyone all the same; streamers are just an easier target for it.

So the 3000 people on a layer can’t form a community by themselves?

Hm. Fair point. Sure, they could, but that doesn’t change the fact the other 3,000*N people all playing at the same time are going to be hidden away in other layers.

The original 3,000 people on a layer also run the risk of being swapped around between layers, inhibiting the community forming. Not preventing, of course, but inhibiting.

How do you feel about CRBGs being implemented from the get-go

How I feel about it is inconsequential. They were part of 1.12, so they’ll be part of Classic. I want vanilla, for better or for worse.

The debate about CRBGs, using 1.12 AV, etc, is one I think that is totally separate to that of layering.

Does it affect it positively or negatively though?

Negatively.

it’s not quantifiable

That depends on how you’d intend to quantify it.

Was layering in vanilla? No. Therefore, having layering is quantifiably less vanilla-like.

Whether or not you consider Classic being faithful to vanilla as a positive or a negative probably depends on if you actually want vanilla or if you just want a good game whether it’s vanilla or not.

I already think vanilla is good. It has its flaws, but I’d rather not change it, because none of the good changes are worth the bad changes that’d come along with them.

I’d rather they just give me the game I already love and enjoy rather than try to change it to make it better. This is especially true with Blizzard, because I no longer trust them to make the distinction between good and bad changes.

Because 90% of the population isn’t going to be lvl 60 in a month. “High level resources” is #1 issue people have.

No, the #1 issue people have is that it wasn’t in vanilla. All the other issues with layering are just more reasons to justify complaining about it.

Alas, that’s not really a valid argument. You don’t have to be 60 to get the highest level resources, it doesn’t take 100% of the player base being 60 to cause problems, and what’s to say layering only lasts 1 month anyway?

They are already implementing a CD for layer hopping.

Which is far too short, but that’s a good step, yes. The more they do to limit people’s ability to swap between layers, the better.

Ideally, you’d pick which layer you wanted to play on, and you wouldn’t be able to swap between them at all.

Cant switch layers mid combat so pvp is just fine

Well, we’ve seen evidence proving otherwise. Hopefully that’s just a bug that’ll be fixed. I’ve heard some claim it already is fixed.

Alas, that doesn’t really fix the problem, though. You can still swap layers outside of combat, which presents all the same issues.

Even with layering I don’t expect to be able to play launch night. Without layering, it’s going to be literal weeks before queues get to a reasonable level, little on go away at all.

I guess that depends on how many people plan on playing, how many of those are playing at the same time, and how many realms there are.

All data that I lack, unfortunately. At best, even Blizzard can only speculate as to those numbers.

And let’s say they open more servers to alleviate the queue times.

Let’s not. That’s what causes dead realms. Adding realms just to deal with the initial launch population is foolish, since that population will greatly decline, or at the very least spread out their logins.

How many of those people do you think are going to give up because a) Classic wasn’t for them, or b) they don’t want to wait in queue?

I’d imagine the number of people who’d quit over a queue on launch day is pretty minimal, especially given they pay a monthly subscription and can just try again later if they really aren’t willing to wait.

They could play on a less populated realm with shorter or non-existent queues, as well. The population would spread out perfectly even. There will be some realms with ridiculously high queues, and some “dead” realms.

Y’all can’t have it both ways. Either you’re going to have a small subset community that is willing to put up with queues spread across many servers, or you get the opportunity to have a larger community with layering.

We don’t want it both ways. We want it one way: the way it was in vanilla.

If that produces only a small subset community that is willing to put up with queues, then so be it.

[quote=“Hanners-emerald-dream, post:128, topic:222655”]
The people that could potentially stick around are not going to with a queue, regardless of anyone else’s opinion on “instant gratification”.

The people that could potentially stick around are not going to with a queue, regardless of anyone else’s opinion on “instant gratification”.

Why not? That’s exactly what happened in the past.

You also have all four timezones in the US connecting at the same time, instead of being staggered over 4 hours.

I’m pretty sure that’s never how it worked. They weren’t staggered over 4 hours; they were all logged in at the same time. It’s just that it was midnight for some, 1 AM for others, 11 PM for others, and so on.

I said the regions don’t really matter, because all the EU players logging in at the same time as US players won’t affect either in any way, since they’re connecting to different region servers.

Which, again, community-wise all you’re left with is enough people patient enough to wait for weeks to actually start playing reliably.

It won’t take weeks to be able to start playing reliably, even without layering. Even if by “playing reliably” you mean “no waiting in a queue,” it still won’t take weeks.

[Ironsides-stormreaver (Ironsides)]

Just because something else does as much or more harm to the economy does not mean something that does less harm has had no impact on the economy.

If you think N number of layers, all full with people farming resources, mobs, questing, leveling, and such, won’t impact the economy, you’re deluding yourself.

So what you’re saying is that 5 layers filled with 5 groups of people all farming resources will somehow result in a different economy than 1 layer with 1 group of people farming? If all layers are filled with people farming resources, then there should be no change to the economy.

I’m saying that Maraudon/DM being in absolutely destroys the economy compared to whatever layering does. Comparatively speaking, layering is a non-factor compared to a hypothetical surplus of devilsaur leather/arcane crystals for the first few months.

Because private servers are inauthentic garbage. I’d much prefer Blizzard doesn’t provide me more of the same.

Are they? The playerbase is the same more or less. DM/maraudon farming was viable in 2004-06. It was on private servers as well until players started abusing it after the stratholme box bug was fixed. After it came to light how profitable it was, it was changed because the inflation it was causing was destroying the economy.
If you really are #nochanges, I hope you’re okay with the same thing happening on retail servers. It’s not a question of “if” dire maul destroys the economy, it’s a question of “when”.

Or maybe you’re asking to be invited to another layer because you were already killed and are now getting camped, and you just want to continue questing peacefully on the layer where the faction balance leans more in your favor.

And what’s to stop me from following that player to that layer? Or the more cowardly option, reporting them for breaking the ToU?

thereby granting you and/or any other user an advantage over other players not using such methods;

I’m pretty sure they implemented an IGCD on swapping layers that gets changed when actions are taken anyways.

It affects everyone all the same; streamers are just an easier target for it.

How are you going to get on top of “someone” you don’t even know is there? You’ll be just as surprised as he is that you popped out of thin air.

The original 3,000 people on a layer also run the risk of being swapped around between layers, inhibiting the community forming. Not preventing, of course, but inhibiting.

Sure. But from my experience, people add me after 5 mans and they’ll be able to play with me if they need a tank ever. I didn’t really notice being on a different layer ever.

How I feel about it is inconsequential. They were part of 1.12, so they’ll be part of Classic. I want vanilla, for better or for worse.

The debate about CRBGs, using 1.12 AV, etc, is one I think that is totally separate to that of layering.

It’s of consequence to me. Consistence should be key, and if community building is something you hold dearly as it seems to be, that should be reflected with all of your views.

Does it affect it positively or negatively though?

Was layering in vanilla? No. Therefore, having layering is quantifiably less vanilla-like.

Whether or not you consider Classic being faithful to vanilla as a positive or a negative probably depends on if you actually want vanilla or if you just want a good game whether it’s vanilla or not.

I already think vanilla is good. It has its flaws, but I’d rather not change it, because none of the good changes are worth the bad changes that’d come along with them.

I’d rather they just give me the game I already love and enjoy rather than try to change it to make it better. This is especially true with Blizzard, because I no longer trust them to make the distinction between good and bad changes.

I think Classic being faithful to vanilla is a detriment, personally.
If I had it my way, we wouldn’t have spell batching as lax as it is, CRBGs would be gone, DKs wouldn’t exist, and raids would actually be hard.

Times have changed, and mistakes were made. I don’t think we need to make the same mistakes twice, but I’ll play as long as my guild does regardless of the final outcome.

[Ohshiftson-area-52]

If all layers are filled with people farming resources, then there should be no change to the economy.

How is 5x the number of people gathering resources simultaneously not a change to the economy?

I’m saying that Maraudon/DM being in absolutely destroys the economy compared to whatever layering does.

I don’t disagree. That doesn’t mean layering doesn’t affect the economy.

A stab to the heart does more damage than a stab to the thigh, but a stab to the thigh is still harmful.

Comparatively speaking, layering is a non-factor compared to a hypothetical surplus of devilsaur leather/arcane crystals for the first few months.

One is caused by the other, and the first few months are when those resources will matter most.

By the time people are clearing BWL or AQ or Naxx, no one is going to care about the price of Devilsaur Leather.

Are they?

Yes, as you clearly described:

There’s a reason private servers had to make their own changes to those instances.

The playerbase is the same more or less.

So what? The player base doesn’t make them authentic.

If you really are #nochanges, I hope you’re okay with the same thing happening on retail servers.

Obviously, because I’m actually in favor of no changes. “Warts and all.”

And what’s to stop me from following that player to that layer?

Knowing which layer they went to, for one. Risking phasing into a mass of enemies and ending up getting camped yourself, secondly. The fact you might also just want to quest peacefully and the fact there’s no enemy faction members there to disrupt that makes you perfectly content, and the only reason you were PvPing is to fight over the mobs, thirdly.

I’m sure I could think of other reasons.

Or the more cowardly option, reporting them for breaking the ToU?

Breaking the ToU? What? How is using an intended feature of layering in violation of any Blizzard policy?

thereby granting you and/or any other user an advantage over other players not using such methods;

Nice try. Quote the whole thing next time:

cheats; i.e. methods not expressly authorized by Blizzard, influencing and/or facilitating the gameplay, including exploits of any in-game bugs, and thereby granting you and/or any other user an advantage over other players not using such methods;

I’m pretty sure they implemented an IGCD on swapping layers that gets changed when actions are taken anyways.

Okay? But you can still swap. The frequency at which you can do it doesn’t really matter.

How are you going to get on top of “someone” you don’t even know is there?

What’s to say you don’t know they’re there? If you’re being invited to another layer on top of someone, it likely means you’re communicating with someone who does know they’re there.

“I’m dead. I see him. He’s sitting right on the corner. He’s eating. Okay, accept my invite, he’s half HP!”

Sure. But from my experience, people add me after 5 mans and they’ll be able to play with me if they need a tank ever.

There’s more opportunities for communities to form than after a dungeon.

It’s of consequence to me. Consistence should be key

Then you should know I am consistently disregarding my own personal feelings about a particular feature and concerning myself almost entirely with whether it existed in vanilla or not.

I think Classic being faithful to vanilla is a detriment, personally.

This speaks for itself.

Times have changed, and mistakes were made. I don’t think we need to make the same mistakes twice, but I’ll play as long as my guild does regardless of the final outcome.

Then maybe you should be advocating for Blizzard to make another MMO instead of Classic.

No one would be here complaining about #nochanges if it weren’t meant to be a recreation of the game they already know and love.

[Pyro-nazjatar]

its not going to bother me at all, thats whats important

[Ohshiftson-area-52]

its not going to bother me at all

Good for you.

thats whats important

To someone who doesn’t want vanilla, sure.

[Ironsides-stormreaver (Ironsides)]

How is 5x the number of people gathering resources simultaneously not a change to the economy?

Because there would be 5x the amount of people buying those resources up. Supply and demand will be the same.

One is caused by the other, and the first few months are when those resources will matter most.

By the time people are clearing BWL or AQ or Naxx, no one is going to care about the price of Devilsaur Leather.

I disagree on that, devilsaur leather remains a popular item well into and past BWL. You can see for yourself on servers that have Naxx released, it still sells for 10g.

Yes, as you clearly described:

There’s a reason private servers had to make their own changes to those instances.

And retail will suffer the same problems private did when it left the issue unchecked. Unauthentic?
Yes.
But player knowledge/use of DM/maraudon was limited back then and it wasn’t a problem back then, which is unauthentic in itself.

So what? The player base doesn’t make them authentic.

But the behavior of the playerbase is predictive of what will happen. It’s the most authentic part of private servers.

Obviously, because I’m actually in favor of no changes. “Warts and all.”

No changes in this case would actually lead to a bigger change from what you experienced in 04-06, ironically enough.

Breaking the ToU? What? How is using an intended feature of layering in violation of any Blizzard policy?

thereby granting you and/or any other user an advantage over other players not using such methods;

Nice try. Quote the whole thing next time:

cheats; i.e. methods not expressly authorized by Blizzard, influencing and/or facilitating the gameplay, including exploits of any in-game bugs, and thereby granting you and/or any other user an advantage over other players not using such methods;

So blizzard expressly authorized changing layers to help you farm, avoid pvp, etc? or was layering intended for other reasons?

I’m pretty sure when Kazzak got one shotted by that paladin, blizzard considered that an exploit. That’s why it was fixed the next day–it offered a user an advantage over other players not abusing it.

Okay? But you can still swap. The frequency at which you can do it doesn’t really matter.

If it’s a different layer every 5/10/15 minutes it negates the scouting for resources reason.
I’d say the frequency matters a whole lot.

How are you going to get on top of “someone” you don’t even know is there?

What’s to say you don’t know they’re there? If you’re being invited to another layer on top of someone, it likely means you’re communicating with someone who does know they’re there.

That’s weird that I’m communicating with someone from another layer, must mean that there is some degree of community forming in that case
Fair point though. But a great way to encourage World PvP.

“Did that guy really just layer in help? I’m going to do the same”.

Seems like it could actually build community at that point, doesn’t it?

Then you should know I am consistently disregarding my own personal feelings about a particular feature and concerning myself almost entirely with whether it existed in vanilla or not.

Then I don’t think you should be using it being harmful to the community as one of your reasons for arguing against it, as there are other things that are more harmful to the community that are “vanilla features” regardless of the duration of time they were in vanilla for.

This speaks for itself

It does. I know better than to think we’ll get the same experience in 2019 than we did in 2006.

The issue is this, I want an experience that is authentic to the way the game felt back then, not the way the game was back then.

Subtle difference, but two very distinct and very different games.

Then maybe you should be advocating for Blizzard to make another MMO instead of Classic.

No one would be here complaining about #nochanges if it weren’t meant to be a recreation of the game they already know and love.

I figured if the posters screaming about dire maul being included at launch were appeased, maybe they’ll make other changes that actually make sense as well.

[Ohshiftson-area-52]

Because there would be 5x the amount of people buying those resources up. Supply and demand will be the same.

Supply is higher than demand in an MMO. There’s a reason costs go down over time.

I disagree on that, devilsaur leather remains a popular item well into and past BWL. You can see for yourself on servers that have Naxx released, it still sells for 10g.

I didn’t say anything about its popularity.

And the fact it sells for 10g is totally meaningless information without knowing the amount of gold circulating the economy on a realm. 10g can be expensive or cheap depending on the realm.

And retail will suffer the same problems private did when it left the issue unchecked.

You just said they didn’t leave it unchecked.

But so was player knowledge/use of DM/maraudon back then.

That’s not a change to the game.

It’s the most authentic part of private servers.

Okay? Cool. They still made changes, which makes them inauthentic.

No changes in this case would actually lead to a bigger change from what you experienced in 04-06, ironically enough.

I don’t care about what I experienced. I care about the game.

So blizzard expressly authorized changing layers to help you farm, avoid pvp, etc?

Yes. Do you think people phasing into other layers when invited is an unintended bug?

I’m pretty sure when Kazzak got one shotted by that paladin, blizzard considered that an exploit.

Dude, if they decide swapping layers to avoid PvP or farm more efficiently is an exploit that needs to be fixed, I would laugh hysterically. It would validate everything we’ve said about layering being a problem.

Do you really want to make the case that hopping between layers is an unintended exploit that needs to be fixed? That will do a lot more for my argument than yours.

If it’s a different layer every 5/10/15 minutes it negates the scouting for resources reason.

Assuming there’s only one person doing it, sure.

There’s also the fact there’s multiple layers worth of people gathering the same resources at a time, even if they don’t swap between layers.

I’d say the frequency matters a whole lot.

It changes the severity of the issue, yes. Obviously being able to do it once an hour is far less of a problem than being able to do so without limitations, but it’s still a problem nonetheless.

That’s weird that I’m communicating with someone from another layer, must mean that there is some degree of community forming in that case

I was working under the assumption that these two people already knew each other and were communicating in someone outside of the game.

Fair point though. But a great way to encourage World PvP.

A very different and inauthentic form of world PvP, sure.

Seems like it could actually build community at that point, doesn’t it?

Not really, as it’s entirely possible to avoid those scenarios whereas without layering, it wouldn’t be.

If someone brought in help, they’d have to ask for help of their own to deal with it. With layering, they can just phase away to safety.

Then I don’t think you should be using it being harmful to the community as one of your reasons for arguing against it, as there are other things that are more harmful to the community that are “vanilla features” regardless of the duration of time they were in vanilla for.

First and foremost, being true to vanilla is my concern. Everything past that point is just helpful to my case.

There are things harmful to the community in vanilla, I’m sure, but they were part of vanilla.

The only reason I make any point other than “it wasn’t in vanilla” is because pro-changes folks don’t think that is reason enough not to implement something.

It’s a sad state of affairs when “it wasn’t in vanilla” isn’t reason enough not to implement something in what is meant to be a recreation of vanilla.

I know better than to think we’ll get the same experience in 2019 than we did in 2006.

Why do you keep bringing up the experience? “The experience” is subjective and varied from person to person. It is literally impossible to recreate, yet the game is not.

The issue is this, I want an experience that is authentic to the way the game felt back then , not the way the game was back then.

Then get a time machine or bash your head against a wall a few times to cause some brain damage to revert back to your younger, less experienced state of mind.

I figured if the posters screaming about dire maul being included at launch were appeased, maybe they’ll make other changes that actually make sense as well.

Not including Dire Maul at launch isn’t really a change, though. Vanilla didn’t launch with Dire Maul.

If anything, asking for Dire Maul not to be available at launch is asking to revert a change, not to make a change in the first place.

[Mogar-stormrage (Mogar)]

That’s why I’m careful not to confuse the issue. I demand the game, not the experience.

It’s a good way of putting it. And do you know what was the catalyst in creating those experiences? The community.

Community is by far the biggest factor in what made Vanilla WoW Vanilla WoW. So while it’s important (and necessary) to get all the little things right, the most important feature of the game, aka the community, shouldn’t be put to the side and given a lower priority.

[Dealloc-dethecus (Dealloc)]

Fairly often.

And how would you know that?

/1 Invite me to the fun layer.

Do public chat channels actually send to all layers? Do you see all layers when you /who? I really don’t know.

But I do know it’s easy to communicate with streamers across layers. And that’s where most people’s knowledge of how layering works comes from. So you can imagine how skewed their perspective may be.

They’ll get swapped whether they want to or not.

Again you’re making unfounded assumptions. As far as I know the only way to switch layers is to join or leave a group of another layer. Maybe it’s just joining because if it’s also on leaving that’d be quite a bit more jarring.

[Pyro-nazjatar]

whatever, im not a purist. i have better things to worry about

[Frizzler-kelthuzad]

Remove layering, it is so bad and will introduce more issues than it fixes.

[Ohshiftson-area-52]

And how would you know that?

Videos, streamers, forum posts, personal accounts from folks in the beta.

Do public chat channels actually send to all layers? Do you see all layers when you /who? I really don’t know.

Yes. At the very least, that’s how it worked in the last stress test.

But I do know it’s easy to communicate with streamers across layers. And that’s where most people’s knowledge of how layering works comes from. So you can imagine how skewed their perspective may be.

I’m not sure how it’s skewed, exactly. They’re playing the same game as the rest of us.

Again you’re making unfounded assumptions.

It’s not unfounded. If there is a cap to how many players can be in each layer and someone decides to be invited to another layer, what do you think the system does? It rather defeats the point of having a cap if it allows that cap to be exceeded.

What happens is someone, somewhere in the world, will be forced into a different layer.

im not a purist.

Then you never wanted vanilla. That’s okay. Some of us want vanilla.