GBoK spam is a functioning mechanic…and it works quite well.
If your referring to using Holy Damage to generate threat then it doesn’t work in raids except on trash or against weak DPS competition.
Holy Power Coefficients are too low and aren’t applied often enough to generate sufficient threat.
1H SoR 10% per swing.
JoR 50% every 8s with talents.
Consecration 33% spread over 8s.
Holy Shield 5% per block, 20% max over 10s.
Blessing of Sanctuary 0%
Even at 1000 spell power, a Paladin tanking a 2minute fight, even with unlimited mana, couldn’t hold off a DPS Fury Warrior who knew what they were doing by the end of MC.
Paladin threat doesn’t scale much even with copious gobs of spell power in any fight over 90s.
Paladin threat seems powerful in short fights and 5 mans, because its front loaded…all your timers are up and you can use max ranks for short durations.
To put that in perspective:
Max Rank Holy Shield + Max Rank Sanctuary + 1000 Spell Power = 165 TPS.
Max Rank Consecration + 1000 Spell Power = 170 TPS.
Max Rank JoR + 1000 Spell Power every 8s = 185 TPS.
Max Rank SoR with 1000 Spell Power will vary by delay…however thats about 200 TPS.
None of that factors in misses, resists, or GCD conflicts…let alone mana consumption.
Thats about 720 TPS under ideal conditions with a spell power value no Paladin will ever see.
And this. Almost in no case is the “TPS” set for a Protadin going to be anything other than Kings spamming, which means only ensuring the mana necessary for it and to maintain Holy Shield.
The DPS category is the slightly more interesting one for Paladins, simply because of their weird and inconsistent mechanics. But that also reveals the major downfall of Protadins: you can hold aggro to be sure with Kings spamming, but you’re bringing nothing else to the table, so you’re well below optimal on the DPS front.
And of course this ignores how EH and TTL suffer on a Paladin due to lack of useful gear.
I wanna know this too, shaman tanking is a meme but paladins were supposed to be able to tank, would be nice to know if they can do actual content (mc doesn’t count it’s a meme)
Paladin threat with at least 7 of a single class is excellent in MC and beyond.
With some guilds stacking 10 to 15 Warriors Paladins actually have the best threat in the game until mid AQ 40.
Fasciae is right though, you will lose DPS. Paladins using Auto attack, SoW, JoW, and Rank 1 HS are about 150 DPS with a good weapon…and that doesn’t scale at all.
The gear isn’t an issue until AQ 40 though.
Warriors in BWL may currently use shields, but most are sub 350 adjusted defense and very low avoidance beyond talents. They do have defensive stance and Imp Shield Block, but right now EH is king, and Paladins bring enough of that in BWL.
The issues are:
GBoK doesn’t show on a threat meter.
GBoK can actually function like an AE taunt if you have too many of one class.
Tank swaps are required on fights, and you can’t ride threat if you can’t see it…
Paladins can tank some fights amazingly well in BWL.
On other fights they are horrible to effectively manage.
I admit I’m mainly concerned about “were people right to dismiss Prot Paladins in vanilla” rather than whether they are now. In vanilla you wouldn’t have built a strategy around something as clearly unintended as GBoK spam unless you wanted it rendered useless by the nerf bat in a month. But then, the standard wasn’t holding off a fury warrior freely spamming, either…so going down that path does get subjective before long.
As far as today:
You accounting for the fact that the tank doing all those things that pallies do means you don’t need an Hpally doing the same? Not a huge effect, but when you’re getting into things like the DPS from the MT you’re digging deep.
Also why haven’t threat meters been updated for it yet?
Longer Answer: Paladins suffer from effective gearing issues, leaving them capable of achieving similar Health and Armor totals compared to Warriors, but without the additional Defense, Dodge, Parry, Block on top of it. Further, Paladins have no other EH boost talent aside from Toughness, which pales in comparison to Dire Bear Form plus Heart of the Wild and Defensive Stance plus Toughness. Finally, fights simply lasted a long time in Vanilla because DPS was poorly optimized and going glass-cannon was nigh heresy, so what was understood to be the best means of maintaining threat simply couldn’t be maintained for long even with chugging potions.
During Vanilla that was important…but currently no. Nor will it be until the second half of AQ 40.
Warriors are tanking with DPS gear on, with a Shield, with sub +50 Defense from gear.
They aren’t pushing avoidance in any appreciable way and they aren’t even pushing EH…ie Lionheart, Band of Accuria, Wristguards of Trueflight, no Mark of Tyranny, No AC on rings, etc and so on and so forth.
Paladins can easily match that tanking profile until AQ 40 without issue while generating much better threat if you have 8+ Warriors in your raid…which many do.
Deeper in AQ 40 both threat and tank profile could become a serious issue in comparison to other tanks.
However ZG and AQ 20 will provide very needed swaps for early AQ 40.
Shield Block and Defensive Stance do wonders for Tanking. In just maximum EH gear, a Warrior handily trounces a Druid on TTL. I haven’t made TTL sets for Warrior but Druids don’t have a ton of options to jazz up our Avoidance that aren’t also big hunks of Armor or Stamina due to limited itemization, so I don’t expect the comparison of best TTL Druid set against best TTL Warrior set to fare well.
A Warrior in Phase 3 EH gear, just spamming away on their Shield Block, is going to have ~80.95% uptime on the skill against a boss with a base swing timer of 2 sec, slowed by Thunder Clap, but also hasted by the Warrior’s own parried attacks. Despite the lower uptime and the tiny opportunity to take a critical hit (<0.4%), that essentially means around 92% of all attacks get Dodged, Blocked, Parried, or Miss. That’s obscenely powerful coupled with the fact that EH stacked Warriors only trail EH stacked Druids by a small amount and overtake us once Inspiration comes into play.
Paladin just isn’t going to be able to approach that kind of oomph with Holy Shield, and they don’t have the extra 10% reduction of Defensive Stance to prop themselves up further. Tier 2 for a Paladin and Warrior have the same armor, but on the chest piece, the Paladin has 21 Stamina, the Warrior has 40, and there aren’t really any solid options without dipping back down into dungeon plate pieces.
ZG and AQ20 do provide some gap filling, but right now? Paladin EH (especially this) and TTL are just big liabilities.
Tanked DMW very successfully last night! The Block and Parry talents from Enh, stam/agi from gear, defense totems and the usual Rockbiter+ES were all key, as well as casting Bolt -> Chain -> ES on bigger pulls. I had to take drinks every few pulls with the other casters in my party but we cleared quickly and my heals hardly had to lift a finger outside of overpulling and bosses. This was with no purple gear either save a Crown of Destruction!
Tanking raids is a silly notion, but I’m sure something equally silly like Nature’s Swiftness + Hand of Edward the Odd would put in work there as well.
Shaman tanks can tank any dungeon. The two major downsides are going oom relatively quickly and low armor compared to Warriors with a shield and Druids in Dire Bear Form. You are also screwed if the mob is resistant to nature damage, but I don’t recall that in any dungeon BRD and later. Most mobs die quickly enough in dungeons that your mana isn’t an issue, though you will have to drink after almost every pull slowing the run down. Warriors are having no problems tanking dungeons and even raids dual wielding or using a 2H, which gives them around the same armor as a Shaman with a shield. Shaman threat isn’t a problem since it’s superior to Warrior threat (when you have mana).
Shamans can even main tank MC and Ony without any trouble if the healers are good. They will take damage similar to a Fury Prot Warrior permanently dual wielding though. That means it’s a terrible idea for progression. The reason they aren’t used is because of the mana problem slowing down the raid. You can tank any dungeon, but groups will not want to bring you due to thinking it’s a meme spec.
Most mob pulls including the ghosts went down quickly - I opened with a lot of magic damage and threat so the party could unload immediately unlike with warr pulls. We nuked them hard.
As for the final boss, he indeed hit like a truck but I didn’t need to burn a pot - granted I actually didn’t tank him for the first 1/3rd of the fight due to our lock going all-out on pull to the point where even ES+Rockbiter wasn’t enough to grab threat from him haha. I haven’t looked up the boss’s abilities though, so I wouldn’t know if he had one that enabled him to ignore threat or something along those lines.
The knockback is an aggro drop, which is a good rule of thumb generally for Vanilla that if a Tank is ever punted away by a mob for almost any reason, there’s a VERY solid chance the mob is about to go eating someone else in short order.
Although, I love shaman tanking your comment need to be qualified.
A shaman tank who is well geared and going against a boss who is on farm will come close and in a few special scenarios surpass a warrior.
This is simply false. Mana is a manageable thing. Judging by your willingness to barely admit that they can tank dungeons, I’d assume you don’t know much about shaman tanking. Since even a hunter, boomkin, etc… can tank dungeons.
Who told you this? On the contrary many people (even noobs) have cleared MC. If you’re interested there’s a whole Shaman Tanking Discord server dedicated to help people.
This literally never happens unless you’re comparing yourself to a Warrior who is behind a tier while the Shaman is ahead a tier… and even then it is a high threshold to cross. Shaman are especially fragile compared to an even half-geared Druid.
I was referring to a typical PuG, not a group that knows the dungeon a lot better than most or is overgeared. I also said in the same post that its definitely possible to MT MC and Ony as a Shaman. Your guild just has to have MC on farm and it’s not hard at all.