Warcraft Logs shows your gear worn while you do the raids. Many items either have no replacement or are very close to the next step up in raw EH. Or are you going to argue with me about Mark of Tyranny?
It isn’t. When a large portion of Crushing Blows kill you as well, you’re rolling the dice a lot more often than you’re giving credit.
From failure of play on the part of the Druid/Warrior or their raid, not impossibility due to gear and class restrictions like a Shaman.
Time to get educated, again. Helm of Narv, Bloodmail Belt, Molten Fists, Naglering, Thrall’s Resolve, Royal Decorated Armor, and The Immovable Object are ALL pre MC pieces. The two trinkets I am using are also blues and pre MC but as you mentioned they are really good.
Okay and failure to play and gear happens, most guilds are on the side where that kind of thing happens all the time and the bosses still go down. I’ve already said that, too.
And you’re not reading, again.
Tons of “pre-MC” pieces are still better than MC pieces. This is how I know you didn’t look at the gear and you don’t actually understand what you’re doing. And the pieces that aren’t BiS for the present phase? They’re very close to the actual BiS. Helm of Narv goes a long way, but is sorely lacking in Armor, which is why it gets beat.
Seriously… you need to actually read what’s posted instead of arguing with strawmen.
Failure of play != failure of gearing.
You’re only adding liabilities other guilds don’t even have to consider by playing at being a real Tank.
Tanks die all the time in casual/non hardcore guilds.
The dungeon blues I listed which I was using have upgrades in MC and in BWL… Want me to list them? I mean you proved my point with Helm of Narv, it has nice stam but it get’s beat, so do I really need to for what? All 7 of the pieces I named?
For failure of play, not play-acting Tanks, again the subjectivity nonsense.
You… aren’t reading are you? I really do wonder if English is your first language because you don’t seem to understand the difference between “some” and “all” with regards to all of the gear you’re wearing.
You mean how people ACTUALLY play the game? Yeah damn how things unfold in real time, damn it to hell! In real time other tanks get dropped all the time. Failure in heals, fail to mechanics, fail to gear, whatever.
If i gear properly I have somewhere between 8-11% chance to get 1shot. We’re arguing over a 3% variance and whether or not guilds care. I can attest that at least some guilds do not, so can many other shaman. Therefor it’s viable, by definition of a non convoluted nature.
Not listed here is avoidance of wasting your guild’s time for being a failure from the start, but hey, conflate a HEALING issue with trying to throw any warm body in front of a boss because you really really want to try your hardest!
Geez this is getting pathetic with how far you’re willing to stretch everything to justify what you’ve already admitted is just your bad guild’s nonsense.
“Some terrible, casual, idiotic guilds are OK with it therefore viable.”
M’kay.
That’s your elitist opinion lmao! And that’s just it, if we wanted an elitist opinion we’d go ask for it. This began as a more casual inquiry but you’ve made it into this theory crafting number fest. 10% chance of getting 1 shot on 1 to 2 bosses fine. You’re viable for most of the instance so it’s fine, don’t try to join any hardcore guilds over it though.
I’m not conflating anything, I’m comparing them. If other guilds can get content down dropping a tank here and there, for whatever reason, there can be mathematically no difference if you run a shaman tank in a group with great healers. Having a shaman tank is a lot more intense and fun for some people, that’s why most of us play video games.
“Not wanting our Tanks to explode into a fine bloody mist despite being at 100% health, full consumables including a flask, all buffs, all debuffs, and Healers ready to go is ELITIST”
“My idea of fun is to take a stob and jam it into my eye so I have half as much vision so I have twice as much challenge!”
Like I said, your crappy guild can do what they like and waste their own time how they wish, but when people say “Shaman can’t Tank” your guild’s antics and failures are not a refutation.
Except stabbing yourself in the eye is rather permanent and this is a video game. Making the video game harder can be more fun. Um duh.
It happens all the time, for what seems the hundredth time. Casual guilds drop their tanks plenty. 10% on one boss isn’t a big deal.
I’d appreciate it if you didn’t insult my guild. But going after people you’ve never even met fits the MO
No. Tanks don’t die to spike damage as a result of the game simply saying “sorry you don’t have enough to survive this despite Demo Shout, Greater Stoneshield Potions, etc and you being at full health.”
Conflating a death that happens because a Tank eats an MS plus three followup melee hits with only a Rejuv ticcing away with a death that occurs because you’re made of paper and shouldn’t be Tanking is just… so so silly.
I can only judge your guild based upon their progression and what they do/try/allow. They play poorly, clear slowly, are stuck on Chrommagus, and they waste time letting you play at Tanking.
I’m sure they’re nice folks, they’re just very subpar raiders.
Not really no.
I took the liberty of checking out the tanking logs of Shaman, and the threat was in the ballpark of 300+ TPS.
You can get away with that when your mages are your top DPS doing just over 400 DPS due to 30% threat reduction talents, which is what showed up on the logs.
But if you have a solid DPS Fury Warrior in the raid, who has no ability to control threat, your going to cripple raid wide DPS by alot. Even Rogues, who have some means of threat control, would have to throttle down alot or waste energy to control threat…which is basically the same thing.
Against trash, right now, a Shaman can top 600 TPS easily. Front loaded TPS, short fights, and lower resist and avoidance levels make that possible.
Against a boss, with a fight approaching 2m or longer however breaking 500 TPS is an issue.
Moreover to maintain that level for that duraction, and nearly 6000 mana per minute, you would have to forgo Stone Shield pot use…significantly reducing EH on a class that has the lowest EH of all tanks.
To put the threat issue into perspective currently, measured against current raid content a Bear, with an MCP will deliver 280 to 350 DPS sustained for 750 to 940 TPS when you add FF into the mix.
The variance comes from whether or not the Bear has access to R 12/13 armor. That advantage goes away by AQ 40.
Warriors start higher in MC on threat, due to sacrificing EH for threat to achieve 900+ TPS. However BWL drops those values when you actually have to wear a shield. However even then they are 800+ TPS currently.
Of all the tanks, Bears will scale the most.
However when you have Warriors easily achieving 600+ DPS, as a casual raider, on a faction without Salvation, your going to seriously throttle certain DPS classes one way or another.
Rogues would rather spend energy in any other fashion for damage rather than burn it to reduce threat as an example. And this is from a class that actually has an option.
Warlocks don’t until 8 pc Tier 2 and Warriors don’t have any options in that regard.
they really cant, I rolled with multiple shamans trying to tank and they always lost aggro, we all had to do half our dps just so they could stay on him
“Tank” is the operative word here.
Shaman’s can’t “tank” successfully because shamans DON’T tank traditionally - they turn everyone in the party into offtanks with their totems and provide single-target taunts and spot heals. Tanking as shaman is as messy as it sounds, but it works well and it’s kind of fun being in the middle of all the chaos that is big pulls with them. Besides their totem buffs, they’re offtanks that can keep one or two important targets’ attention and spot heal themselves and others. You can’t expect eles to do this however, and 3+ shamans in a group don’t mesh well as their totem buffs won’t stack.
I’ve theorycrafted a Resto/Enh hybrid Shaman build that COULD tank raids, but it involves self-healing and odds are that’s a little too jank haha. If nothing else they do great in any and all smaller instances.
Shaman tanks arent as good as 120 blood DKs
This isn’t how shamans tank at all, unless you’re talking about extremely low level dungeons like wailing caverns where threat is pretty much decided by who is higher level.
The problem with this is the fact that hard casting anything lowers your Dodge/Block/Parry to zero, effectively placing you at the mercy of whatever inherent Miss the enemy has, and that’s it. Shaman have precious little EH so hard casting into the face of anything is going to be disastrous.
As someone who has tanked every dungeon up to BRD as enh I disagree. You can level Chain Lightning and burn a fourth of your mana to pull everything and hope for the best, or you can put down Stoneskin, Healing and Grace and enable everyone - even mages - to take a lot to the jaw while grabbing the threat of the biggest mobs yourself with Rockbiter and ES.
Literally the only dungeon this didn’t work smoothly in is ST, where the dragons and dragonkin resist Nature damage. Everyone had a good time, no one raged and we finished at a fashionable pace. I love this class.
Question I’m curious about: Suppose a) taunt is irrelevant for the fight, b) the fight is short enough that Druids have nothing better to do with their innervate than spam it on the tank. Also exclude cheese like GBoK spam. Then how do Prot Pallies look?
That’s actually my next addition. I think I have Warriors squared away, but since they get access to a lot of fancy procs and such, I need to work those in generally to the spreadsheet. Maybe by next weekend?