Scarlets = the Last True Silver Hand & Silver Hand Now Are Heretics!

Moon Guard
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Yes, there is a simple reason behind the mayhem I am causing tonight: I am here to prove the current Silver Hand are heretics and that the Scarlet Crusade is the only true continuation of the Silver Hand. For that, we have to rewind FAR BACK as I piece these puzzles together, so we will start in Warcraft 2 in the Warcraft 2 manual.

“Sire Uther Lightbringer learned first hand that faith alone would not drive out the Horde. Rebuilt the Silver Hand with the hope and faith. Silver Hand made to do war and heal. Silver Hand were formed from the most pious of the knights and priests of Lordaeron with the strength of arms and faith. These paladins bear witness to the free people of the Northlands that the Horde was defeatable.” - Warcraft 2 manual

“Paladins = a holy order of warriors whose purpose is to defend and shepherd the war-torn populace of Lordaeron. Greatest of virtue among the knighthood of Lordaeron and tutored them in the ways of magic. Christened as the Knights of the Silver Hand, they heal wounds and restore faith in the promise of freedom from Orcish tyranny.” - Warcraft 2 manual

“Turalyon = trained by Uther, firm believer order can be maintained by extreme martial discipline.” - Warcraft 2 Manual

“Silver Hand protected Lordaeron from demi-human threats.” - Warcraft 3 Manual

"Do you know who the Knights of the Silver Hand were? They were the original paladins of the Light, and from their ranks came knights who would later join the Argent Dawn or the Scarlet Crusade. Though many have gone astray, they still possess valuable relics of the Silver Hand.

Deep in Stratholme, under the watchful eye of Instructor Galford, volumes of the Annals of the Silver Hand survive. Any volumes you could recover would be a fitting addition to the rededicated Light’s Hope Chapel." www.wowhead. com/quest=28755/annals-of-the-silver-hand

“Lord Uther by my right of succession and the sovereignty of my crown, I hereby relieve you of your command and suspend your paladins from service.”

— Prince Arthas Menethil in WC3 at Stratholme

“As always, first and foremost, it is your duty to go to battle against those who seek to harm our world and bring corruption into our homes.” - Consecrated Letter, Northshire quests for Paladins

“Each libram represented what Faol saw as a trait of the order: retribution, holiness, protection, justice, and peace.” (Of Blood and Honor book)

“Esarus thar no’Darador—By Blood and Honor We Serve.” (Of Blood and Honor)

“So be it,” Uther said ominously. “Tirion Fordring, from this day forth you are no longer welcome among the Knights of the Silver Hand. You are no longer fit to bask in the grace of the Light. I hereby excommunicate you from our ranks.” - Uther to Tirion (Of Blood and Honor)

"The death of my son at the hands of these monsters will not pass without incident. Take solace in knowing that the Order is reborn.

I now take my place as Highlord of the new Order of the Silver Hand." - Tirion Fordring, the guy who was EXCOMMUNIATED from the Silver Hand literally by Uther himself (Of Blood and Honor book) [wowhead. com/classic/quest=5944/in-dreams]

So essentially a guy who Uther excommunicated in his life and never unbanished now becomes HIGHLORD OF THE SILVER HAND? Uncontested? We just accept that and don’t question that?

On the contrary, Saidan Dathrohan was the second in command and a lord Commander of the Silver Hand behind Uther himself higher in ranking than Tirion (Of Blood and Honor book), he was a founder of the Scarlet crusade. Sure he was possessed by a Nathrezim (by the time of Vanilla WoW) but up until that point he was the second in command of all paladins and thus you’d have to imagine in order to be behind only Uther in ranking you’d have to be pretty damn good as a paladin to do that. (of Blood and honor Book; Saidan Dathrohan = Lord Commander, Uther = Supreme leader of the Silver Hand)

"I still don’t know how the Argent Dawn came to be; some say that Lord Maxwell Tyrosus, once a mighty knight, founded it in disgust after Arthas’s betrayal. At first, most believed the Argent Dawn to be a new subsect of the Silver Hand, but swiftly it became evident that they had developed some unusual, different principles and methods. For example, many are known for having cast off paladin armor to fi nd ways to turn the Holy Light toward destructive uses.

"While the Argent Dawn is a neutral organization, some of its founding members were once Knights of the Silver Hand, and as such they still hold some level of influence within the Alliance. The Alliance honors them with offices near the Cathedral of Light in
Stormwind and their own headquarters in Darnassus, as well as smaller buildings in other cities. Some members of the Argent Dawn still hold a fair bit of political sway,
but most have distanced themselves from the Alliance in the last few years as the battles with the Horde have intensified.

The Horde has a healthy relationship with the Argent Dawn as well, but it does not actually serve as a sponsor for the faction’s activities. Rather, the Horden(especially the Forsaken) reinforces the Argent Dawn’s troops and otherwise works with them when doing so seems beneficial — which is usually the case, since the Argent Dawn works heavily in the Plaguelands, and the Horde wants to see the Scourge burned to ash as much as anyone. I personally find it a bit strange that the Argent Dawn, so-called undead slayers, are willing to work with the Forsaken; but I suppose desperate times call for desperate measures. - Dark Factions RPG Books (you can consider it canon or retconned but these things still do apply to the current WoW universe in Vanilla)

The Scarlet Crusaders at Light’s Hope seem obsessed with finding a weapon called “Ashbringer,” which Eligor insists is foolish. Apparently, he was there when the weapon was lost — apparently a man by the name of Highlord Mograine carried the holy blade, but his son betrayed and murdered him. I don’t know much more about the situation, sadly, but it seems like the Argent Dawn and the Scarlet Crusade are more closely connected than I thought. I asked Eligor for more information, but he just shook his head and told me that he couldn’t say much more — but I could go to someone else who knew more. Fairbanks. I’ll have to look up this “Fairbanks” later. (Dark Factions RPG books)

It is also a fair point to point out that the most holy blade in existence was casually forged by Scarlet Crusaders which I’m getting to below.

And if you want to have a little picture of what Saidan Dathrohan must have felt like being possessed by Balnazzar, that is GREAT because in Legion we get all the text we could want! It was probably something along these lines…

Balnazzar says: I’ve been waiting for you, paladin. Know that I will rip the soul from your flesh and make your body my own.
I will turn you into a weapon of the Legion. I will use your hollow shell to corrupt and destroy everything you have ever loved, piece by piece.
Now, kneel. Kneel before your master.
Pathetic mortal. You cannot fight my will. You are mine.
Very well. I will take great pleasure in tearing your apart.
Know that I am Balnazzar. Know that you are but a pawn in plans beyond your reckoning.
Enough. Never again will that damned blade slay my brethren! YOU… WILL… DIE!
You think this is over, paladin? Our journey together has just begun…

Sound a little familiar? Poor Saidan Dathrohan.

That man wasn’t wielding no Ashbringer. How do you think he was going to fare against one of the quite literally most powerful Burning Legion creatures of all time behind only the likes of Archimonde himself which created the Dalaran Crater itself because he roflclaps whole cities in one swipe?

Here is the WHOLE Ashbringer storyline in Legion per the artifact:

Ashbringer

You now possess one of the most iconic and renowned weapons ever created.

Once the bane of the undead (then, for a time, one of the Scourge’s greatest assets), the Ashbringer has been instrumental in the rise and fall of lords, empires, and kings, living and undead alike. It has stood for both good and evil, and now it rests within your hands.

Wield it well.

Ashbringer, Part One

Few known artifacts or relics are capable of rivaling the Ashbringer’s legendary pedigree.

Its origins have been traced to the Second War between orcs and humans. There, on the field of battle, the renowned highlord Alexandros Mograine came into possession of a dark orb.

Though Alexandros considered the artifact to be a living embodiment of shadow, he also believed that it might one day be forged into a weapon of righteousness.

Alexandros’s vision would become a reality, and that weapon would become the Ashbringer.

Ashbringer, Part Two

It is said that deep within the hallowed halls of Ironforge, the Ashbringer was crafted by the dwarf king Magni Bronzebeard, a peerless weaponsmith.

For King Magni, it was a dark time; he grieved over the recent loss of his brother Muradin.

Legend holds that King Magni infused the full weight of his rage and sorrow into the Ashbringer’s forging, resulting in a weapon of untold vengeance and devastation.

Ashbringer, Part Three

So it is written, that when confronted by undead forces, Highlord Alexandros Mograine dispatched them with ease. The blade in his hand felt like an extension of his own flesh, a beautifully lethal instrument of pure destruction.

And as it carved a swath through his Scourge enemies, this new weapon left naught in the aftermath but charred bone and swirling ash.

Thus was the Ashbringer given its name.

Ashbringer, Part Four

In the hands of Alexandros Mograine, the Ashbringer rained unparalleled fury upon the marauding Scourge armies, decimating the undead in numbers beyond reckoning.

So it was that over the course of time, the man and the weapon seemed as one. Ashbringer became a name of legend, attributed not just to the fearsome blade but also to the relentless knight who wielded it.

Ashbringer, Part Five

From the testimony of Fairbanks, advisor to Highlord Alexandros Mograine, shortly before his execution:

""It was outside of Stratholme that we were surrounded by undead. Their numbers were unfathomable. Wave after wave washed over us… and yet Alexandros stood tall, unbowed and unbroken, a rock for them to break against.

““Alexandros’s end came not from the undead but from his own son-the treacherous one, Renault, who took up the Ashbringer and stabbed his father in the back.”” (The Scarlet Commander in Vanilla WoW Scarlet Monastery)

Ashbringer, Part Six

A recounting of the battle at Naxxramas by Darion Mograine, as told to Atticus Krohl:

""Deep within the floating undead citadel of Naxxramas, I discovered what had truly become of my father. Alexandros’s spirit had been tortured and broken; he had been raised as a death knight to defend the very Scourge that he had once labored to destroy.

""They had scoured from him all that was good, leaving behind only a bitter, rotten shell. In defense of my own life, I was forced to end his cursed existence, or so I thought.

““The blade you see, the Ashbringer… it spoke to me in my father’s voice.””

Ashbringer, Part Seven

From the Liber Monasterium:

""And so it was that Darion Mograine, driven by the voice of his father, bore the Ashbringer to the Scarlet Monastery, where he learned of his brother Renault’s treachery.

""The vengeful phantom of Alexandros Mograine manifested out of the Ashbringer. Renault begged for forgiveness, and he was dealt a vicious sweep of the corrupted blade, separating his head from his shoulders.

“”‘You are forgiven,’ was Alexandros’s reply.“”

Ashbringer, Part Eight

An excerpt from The Battle for Light’s Hope:

""The Argent Dawn amassed at Light’s Hope Chapel against the swarming multitudes of Scourge. Battle was joined, and though each and every one of us fought bravely, it seemed there could be no hope of victory.

""In our darkest hour, in an effort to free his father’s condemned soul, Darion Mograine plunged the Ashbringer into his own chest.

““It was then that the souls of the myriad champions buried beneath Light’s Hope lashed out in a devastating blast of purest Light. In that instant, our enemies were undone.””

Ashbringer, Part Nine

There are scores of firsthand accounts of the Second Battle for Light’s Hope Chapel. They differ in some ways, but on many points, they correspond. What is known is that several years after his sacrifice at the first Battle for Light’s Hope, Darion Mograine returned… this time as would-be conqueror, a death knight in the Lich King’s service.

He faced off against his onetime ally, a former Knight of the Silver Hand, Tirion Fordring. Ultimately Darion was subdued even as the dreaded Lich King himself, Arthas, appeared on the battlefield.

In an apparent act of contrition, Darion threw the Ashbringer to Tirion, who purified it with his touch. Tirion then focused his full efforts on the Lich King, who was forced to retreat after a single mighty blow from the uncorrupted Ashbringer.

Ashbringer, Part Ten

In the aftermath of the Second Battle for Light’s Hope, the Ashbringer remained in the possession of Tirion Fordring, highlord of the Argent Crusade. In order to draw out the greatest champions of Azeroth, Tirion instituted a contest of strength and battle prowess known as the Argent Tournament.

In time, Tirion’s Argent Crusade successfully breached the main gate of the Lich King’s stronghold of Icecrown Citadel. As they laid siege to Icecrown’s defenses, the highlord created a pact with Darion Mograine and his Knights of the Ebon Blade, resulting in the Ashen Verdict-a united order bent on destroying the Lich King.

Ashbringer, Part Eleven

The final assault on Icecrown Citadel now ranks among the most legendary military campaigns in recent memory.

Marching alongside some of the greatest champions of Azeroth, Tirion Fordring continued his crusade against the Scourge, staging an all-out attack on the Lich King’s seat of power.

There, Tirion once again confronted Arthas, and all fell silent as the clash of steel rang out across the icy wastes. At the culmination of a fevered battle, the Ashbringer shattered Arthas’s infamous sword, Frostmourne, in a single blow.

Arthas was defeated at last, and the purified Ashbringer took its place among the most celebrated and renowned weapons in all of Azeroth’s history.

SO, what was the point of all of that? Sure Tirion had lots of success at Icecrown Citadel and Broken Shore, not knocking him… but the whole time he was using a SCARLET CRUSADE WEAPON.

What doth ye mean, Kormed?

WHAT I MEAN IS “the [weapon that] has been instrumental in the rise and fall of lords, empires, and kings, living and undead alike [that] has stood for both good and evil” was forged from THE FOUNDERS OF THE SCARLET CRUSADE. The ONLY people there in the Comic Books that forged the Ashbringer was NOT TIRION. It was High General Abbendis’s dad who died in her arms at Tyr’s Hand later when Whitemane tried to show up with Scarlet Monastery forces to save her, (High Inquisitor) Fairbanks, Isillen who would become the Grand Inquisitor, and Alexandros Mograine, Uther’s replacement as Highlord. Thus, every single individual who goes on to found the Scarlet Crusade were there as Silver Hand. So tell me why the leader of the Silver Hand is essentially wielding a blade that was forged from heretics. OH, RIGHT, because it is THE MOST POWERFUL PALADIN ARTIFACT OF ALL TIME. Right right right. Let that sink in.

Tirion = Silver Hand outcast heretic casually wielding a Scarlet Crusade weapon. That is the literal flame on the Scarlet Crusade tabard unless you didn’t know that nugget of knowledge.

So all of this was to say that the modern Silver Hand were…

  1. Founded by a heretic of the Silver Hand (Of Blood and Honor Books + In Dreams Vanilla Quests)
  2. Using items of the Scarlet Crusade to win in the war against the Legion (Ashbringer + Light’s Wrath forged at Hearthglen by the most holiest Scarlet Priests)
  3. Did not have any of the original Silver Hand founders apart of it except for Turalyon. So if Turalyon wanted to be the reformed Silver Hand leader he and Saidan Dathrohan were the last living OGs/founders of the Silver Hand that could have did that. BUT NOT TIRION, GUY EXCOMMUNIATED FOR LIFE CIRCA UTHER’S LIPS.

Thank you for hearing me out and hope y’all all stew on that. Everybody hates on Scarlets until you need our most essentially powerful artifacts of all Holy Light wielders to defeat the Legion. GG and check mate. :^)

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Saiden Dathrohan was already dead and possessed by a Dreadlord before the founding of the Scarlet Crusade.

Ergo the Crusades’ very conception has no validity to it.

If you believe that Undeath/Demonic Dathrohan is not a disqualifying factor for the Crusade, then by that argument Faol (in undeath) still has claims on the Silver Hand.

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I honestly doubt the canonicity of the comics. Like sure Blizzard might say they’re canon, but so were the quests in Vanilla that were removed during Mists. Like nothing the comics did make an ounce of sense.

Not to mention the same thing that befelled the Scarlets could happen to the Silver Hand. No one is free from that. Dreadlords are on par with the Lust Demons of Dragon Age with their type of cunning. I honestly just disregard the comics.

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Of Blood and Honor was basically after the Second War he was possessed as a Scarlet after Uther already died protecting the urn and Tirion was excommunicated. If you actually look at the Paladin talent trees, out of the 5 books of the Silver Hand Traits, each one represents a Silver Hand that went on to do something and Saidan Dathrohan = Holy (Tirion and Turalyon were Protection and Retribution).

So with that being said, Saidan Dathrohan with the continuation of the Scarlets was more true to the Silver Hand than Tirion because like I said he was legit excommunicated and living as a hermit and Uther waved his hands around and bro lost the Light and Hearthglen which Magistrate Barthilas owned before he became the Magistrate of Stratholme and died from Arthas culling Stratholme in Old Caverns of Time. At that point Taelan took over his dad’s spot as the ruler of the principality of Hearthglen.

@Rain And I do agree with you the Nathrezim corruption sure sucks but that could also just explain how much MORE impactful the Scarlets could have been if they were one well oiled cohesive force rather than a pawn of the Burning Legion’s will at the end of the day.

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I think that the story they had in vanilla was good. They had fallen off the wagon, as is what happens when people have power, they abuse it. It was good with Joseph the Awakened wanting to strike those who had become corrupted by power down. Until his fall. It made a lot more sense honestly.

However, with the comic it honestly makes no sense. Worse when you have people rp as paladins and act like they know everything that happened. One, what happened to Dathoran can or could happen to any number of paladins. Dreadlords are supposed to be that good that no one is going to notice that they have taken over. Two, not everyone is going to be privy to the comings and goings, especially not lower levels. And even higher on the spectrum is again hard. You expect to tell me that people like Whitemane knew that Dathoran was a Dreadlord and were okay with it?

Doubt. Really big doubt. Same thing with the Scarlet Onslaught. Like it doesn’t make any sense to me and as someone who rps as a Scarlet redemptionist, I flat out ignore it. It’s horrible writing. Especially the line that they were xenophobic towards other races. You have statues of quel’dorei and dwarves in the Scarlet Monastery, both versions.

And that’s the thing, during Vanilla they were pretty much a cohesive force. All of the areas that the Argent Crusade had taken, were once outposts by the Scarlet Crusade.

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I mean you can say as much as you want but it doesn’t change the fact that the Argent Crusade is canonically the most effective Scourge-fighting force on the planet. Nor that the Scarlets, in spite of all their zealotry, were wholly incompetent, as the best of them left the Brotherhood after the death of the first Ashbringer to create The Argent Dawn.

So the line of ‘true Silver Hand’ succession might not be within the Silver Hand, sure, but it’s definitely not with the Scarlet Crusade, it’s with the Argent Dawn. AKA the group that held the line against the entirety of the Death Knight order with a fraction of the numbers as they defended a rundown old chapel, while the Scarlets failed to defend their lands (the lands again, gifted to them by the Argents at the end of the Naxx patch in Vanilla) with a much larger force because their leadership was zealous and gullible enough to follow magical fairy voices off to Northrend.

Dathrohan would have executed the Scarlet leadership immediately upon Vanilla launch for gross incompetence, treachery, and weakness of will.

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“Days later, Mograine and his advisor Fairbanks traveled to Ironforge to visit King Magni Bronzebeard with the unique crystal of pure light. They gave their condolences on Muradin Bronzebeard’s fate in Northrend, and asked him to have a weapon forged from it. To avenge Muradin, Magni personally took on the task and forged the Ashbringer to oppose Frostmourne, Arthas, and the undead. While Magni never took much stock in the belief that Master dwarven blacksmiths could impart emotions into the weapons they create, standing before The Great Anvil, he found himself thinking of how he would not see Muradin again. He thus harnessed all of his rage, fury, the desire for vengeance, and willed them into being with each strike of his hammer. It is said he worked for three days straight,[7] hoped the sword would be used to avenge his brother. When he was finished, he gave Mograine the finest blade that had ever been crafted by his hand.[1]”
[1] - Death is Contagious installment of the World of Warcraft: Ashbringer comic
[7] - Quote of Alard Schmied to Paladins wielding the Ashbringer, “Well I’ll be… the Ashbringer. They say King Magni worked for three days straight to forge that blade.”

Fairbanks was there, sure, but the efforts to make the Ashbringer was headed by the Highlord of the Silver Hand, never a Scarlet, and forged at the Great Anvil in Ironforge by the Lord and High Thane of Ironforge, Magni Bronzebeard, who was never a Scarlet.

“During the battle, Renault hid while Alexandros and Fairbanks fended for themselves. At some point, Fairbanks eventually became trapped alive under a pile of corpses, while Alexandros alone continued to smite thousands of the undead, but eventually became weary and dropped Ashbringer. Renault came out of hiding and slew his father with the sword, which corrupted the blade.”

The Scarlet Crusade’s effect on the Ashbringer were the corruption of the weapon by the murder of the Highlord of the Silver Hand by Renault, at the manipulations of the possessed Saiden Dathrohan. This event also lead to the fracturing of the Silver Hand and the formation of the Scarlet Crusade by the puppeted Dathrohan. The Crusade didn’t make the weapon, the Crusade was formed on stealing the weapon and corrupting it with the murder of the Highlord and patricide.

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But who was there to purify the corrupted crystal that was put in the Ashbringer?

If Fairbanks was there (+1 Scarlet - future High Inquisitor in the closet), Daddy Abbendis was there (+1 Scarlet - first High General of the Scarlet Crusade before Brigitte), Isillen was there (+1 Scarlet - GRAND Inquisitor of the Scarlet Crusade), Doan was there (+1 Scarlet - Arcanist of the Scarlet Crusade), and Alexandros was there (+1 Silver Hand, future Highlord of the Silver Hand). Statistically speaking, 80% of the people that PURIFIED (not forged) the Ashbringer were Scarlets.

But even if you feel like the Ashbringer is a Silver Hand artifact instead and we follow your train of logic because Alexandros wielded it that still emphasizes the point I’m making that why is Tirion, the guy who was excommunicated from the Silver Hand by Uther himself as we read above is wielding the most powerful Silver Hand artifact of all time? Still a heretic wielding the most powerful artifact ever created by an order he was banished from. Idc about him shattering Frostmourne, etc. etc. etc. those are all great points but the gist is this guy is leading everyone into heresy and thus the current Silver Hand, especially the one in Legion with the Argent Crusade apart of it, is contradictory to the Silver Hand that Alexandros Mograine or much less Uther was the Highlord of. So either the current Silver Hand are all heretics or the original one is. Which is it? This backs up my claim that the Scarlet Crusade can be one of the only true successors of the Silver Hand and everyone now is just pretending.

We’re not even GETTING into Ashbringer 2.0, which is Light’s Wrath.

“It was with our greatest hopes and prayers that we attended the ceremony that day… and it is with our greatest sorrows that we departed it.” - Description flavor text

“Obsessed with cleansing undead from the world of Azeroth, the fanatical Scarlet Crusade tried to create a second Ashbringer in the form of a staff. However, Balnazzar who had infiltrated the order intervened, interrupting their efforts and triggering a violent magical explosion. The damaged staff’s power proved nearly uncontrollable. After several wielders tried and failed to use the staff safely, the elite magi of the Kirin Tor hid it away lest it unleash further deadly calamities.” - Legion text

Unstable, sure. Still used to beat back the Burning Legion? Absolutely. So now I have 2 Scarlet Crusade artifacts in Legion that were quintessential to the defeat of the Legion. How many Argent Crusade or Silver Hand artifacts were used to defeat the Legion and SAVE THE WHOLE WORLD?

A big fat goose egg: 0.

So people love to hate on the Scarlet Crusade and we’re all a much of murdering zealots but when SHIZ hits the fan then y’all heretical hooplahs NEED our most prized possessions in existence ever period to save the universe. Makes a lot of sense to me anyways.

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Iunno man! Last I checked there was a Silverhand on the Ashbringer not a scarlet flame! In the comics and ingame, hell even in the TCG art! :slight_smile:

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Are you arguing objective lore or IC Creative Liberty? That’s a lot of mental gymnastics just to circle around back to the fact that Saiden Dathohan died before the founding of the Scarlet Crusade.

Yes, Saiden was Holy… Until he died.

Everything that came after his death (the founding of the Scarlet Crusade) is the fruit of the poisonous tree. Again; If you want to count Dreadlord Saiden as being legitimate, then it qualifies Faol to have a say as to the legitimacy of the Silver Hand (which Faol did legitimize in the Legion campaign).

As for Tirion and the new Silver Hand - What more legitimacy do you need than the word of Alonsus Faol(Legion) or King Varian Wrynn(WOTLK)?

The Light is the highest authority for Priests & Paladins. Is the miracle of Lights Hope(WOTLK) not enough? Defeat of the Lich King? The fact that the Light protects him even unto death?

Show of hands, how many canon humans are immune to Undeath?

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Wasn’t the whole reason the Priest Order leader used Light’s Wrath because the Scarlets themselves weren’t able to control it, even when they accepted multiple cases of teamkilling?

A nathrezim named Balnazzar had infiltrated the Crusade and assumed the identity of its leader, Saidan Dathrohan. When the demon learned of the plans to forge Light’s Wrath, he feared that such a weapon could unmask his deception and shatter his hold over the Crusade.

Balnazzar disrupted the cleansing ritual, and the crusaders lost control of their delicate spellwork. A storm of holy energy ripped through the meeting place, instantly killing the ten priests. Yet Light’s Wrath was left intact. The blast had purified the jewel and affixed it to the staff.

Upon close inspection, Balnazzar found that the staff trembled with unstable energies. Wielding it with any reliability would be near impossible. Rather than destroy the weapon, the demon allowed the Scarlet Crusade to keep it. He looked forward to the mayhem it would cause in the years to come.

And

A letter from Grand Inquisitor Isillien to High General Abbendis of the Scarlet Crusade:

“I received your last letter, and I understand your concerns. But in terms of raw power, Light’s Wrath has surpassed our wildest expectations. The recent battle near Tyr’s Hand is proof of this.”

“The Scourge outnumbered our righteous warriors twenty to one. It would have been a massacre if not for Light’s Wrath. The staff’s blazing light carved through the Scourge like a scythe through wheat, leaving none behind.”

“It is true that Light’s Wrath killed its wielder and many of the soldiers at his side. It is also true that the surviving crusaders have been left dumbstruck, unable to dress or feed themselves without assistance.”

“But at a ratio of twenty to one, I consider such losses acceptable.”

So in all the Ashbringer is an example of the Scarlets ruining an otherwise amazing weapon via betrayal (and Fordring being the one who fixed it for them, which is probably the exact street cred that let everyone overlook his previous banishment) and Light’s Wrath is an example of their failure to recognise the Dreadlord issue resulting in a damaged second super-weapon that they then tried to cope about by claiming “at least it kills more of our enemies than it does of us, right?”

Not really a good track record imo.

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Just because you know how to bring a gun to a fist fight, doesn’t mean you should.

The problem with the scarlet crusade is its zealotry. Their blind, stupid, single-minded zealotry, which has never been a good thing for the world or the people they’re supposed to be protecting. That’s the whole point of their storyline; that unbridled hate - even if it’s seemingly for a good reason - hurts everyone.

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I mean you could hypothetically do away with it. Which is what the Scarlet Renegades did in vanilla that people forgot.

Now if people keep picking up the bad parts a la Scarlet Brotherhood then someond could pick up the good parts like the Scarlet Redeemers. I find that to be a more compelling storyline versus zealots.

Ive had zealot characters before but I’ve never had them stick because theyre so boring to write. I almost always kill them off.

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It is possible to create a zealot character that has depth to them. They are quite firm in their beliefs, but they have other aspects to them like how they act at home or what they are thinking about while training. It only gets boring when all you do when writing them is have them do the NPC “Death to the Scourge!” 24/7.

For me it’s the redemption seekers that are a dime a dozen and are quite bland characters. They always go on about how they used to be bad but now they are good, as well as completely trash talking those that they were once quite close to just to stay on good terms with their current group. If I had a nickel for every TRP profile I’ve seen that had “Former Scarlet” or “Ex-Scarlet” in their titles without having had ever been in a Scarlet Crusade guild just so they can seem “cooler” or “edgy” I would be a rich man by now.

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Zealotry is a moot issue.

If someone wants to RP a Zealous character, they have the Creative Liberty to do so.

Though to your point; IMHO Scarlet Extremism suffers from the same thing Death Knight roleplay does: folks have a fixed, stagnant opinion about the theme.

They completely dismiss the last in-canon 40[ish] years of character development.

Scarlet’s Zeal is no longer the viewpoint of surviving in an extreme environment surrounded by the undead; They have lost every battle and every stronghold save for New Hearthglen.

Scarlet Zeal should theoretically no longer exist. It should instead be Scarlet Resolve since a majority of surviving Scarlets exist as Pilgrims; trying to coop with the evolving modern world as missionaries, building enclaves.

The mission to restore Lordaeron to its former glory has evolved.

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Except in the Forsaken heritage questline we clearly have a large force of Scarlets attacking Capital City…full of zeal and aiming to push the Forsaken out.

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Again, I think that’s a weak point of Scarlet RP; What wins do Scarlets have to justify the zeal?

If Blizz actually gave Scarlets a win, like a story where Pilgrims quest Heroes to reclaim the Monastery, Purging rabid elements and helping them build a harbor for the Monastery so that they can be open to international trade - Then that’s a win that players can see & rally against/to.

Blizz can keep that moral grey area by having Scarlet Pilgrims preach one thing, then certain NPC’s giving flavor text to suggest that they still adhere to the old ways of the Scarlet Light.

18

The ‘true heirs’ of the Silver Hand ARE the Silver Hand. The Silver Hand was a multi-national organization that spanned every human kingdom. The Silver Hand we see fall apart and get turned into the Scarlet Crusade was the Silver Hand in Lordaeron; but it continued to function and flourish in the southern regions such as Dun Morogh and Stormwind.

In Vanilla you’re inducted into the Silver Hand out in Stormwind, dwarf and human paladins are knights of the Silver Hand. We have this weird situation where there’s the Silver Hand in the southern kingdoms, the Silver Hand that becomes the Scarlets (who then later form the Argents), then the Silver Hand that Tirion reorganized after he took up his mantle of paladin again (which merges with the Argents into the Argent Crusade), and then lastly the Silver Hand that is created from the merging of all paladin organizations.

Ultimately, though, it doesn’t matter. The Scarlet Crusade has been splintered and put back together innumerable times and its original mission was completely tainted from the get-go by having a Dreadlord at the helm masquerading as one of the founders of the Silver Hand. The Argent Crusade continues to function but does not consider itself the ‘Silver Hand’, as they ultimately join another group that uses its moniker without concern.

Lastly that last neutral Silver Hand collapsed in between Legion and BfA, splintering back into an Alliance (and osteinably Argent) organization that has seen some leadership in the form of Turalyon during the Battle for Stromgarde. During BfA the banners used to represent Turalyon are the Silver Hand. He fields veteran silver hand knights as his forces.

He may not be the ultimate leader (That is still presumably the Highlord who would have to either be neutral or Alliance as the Horde departed the organization) but Turalyon is the last of the original five paladins and has the biggest say on who is the Silver Hand over any one else as he was one of the original leaders. As far as he’s concerned, that’s the Alliance’s Silver Hand that has continued without issue in Stormwind since its inception.

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19

The Scarlet Brotherhood left pamphlets in BFA. Those are still canon and probably what led to a massive force growing in the past five years.

20

This entire thread seems like a desperate attempt at relevancy that has nothing to do with the Scarlets or Silver Hand.

Ultimately, the Scarlets are still active; to what size, we may never know. Just like any other ‘evil’ group. Defias, Bloodsails, Cult of the Damned, etc. etc.

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