Rets, calling all rets - pvp/pve buffs? thoughts? ideas?

Classes Paladin
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It’s just terrible Class tree design, honestly. They went for quantity > quality for some reason and it would have been so much better if they did choice nodes of:

  • Lightforged Blessing vs Golden Path + Seal of Mercy
  • Healing Hands vs Strength of Conviction
  • Judgement of Light vs Justiciar’s Vengeance (Self Healing off Finishers)
  • Delete/Bake into other Talents: Fading Light, Touch of Light, Aferimage

On paper, if you take all our 2% healing modifiers, our healing is “fine.” But it’s unrealistic to do so, especially when you consider what you’re giving up for it, and the fact that other classes don’t have to make such sacrifices for their own healing.

3 Likes
244

Yup. And this is on top of silly talents like the steed trio, which honestly we should be anle to choose what movement ability we want since steed is so useless in pvp.

We also got junk talents like sanctify (would be better if cons actually did meaningful damage)

Broken (in a bad way) talents like SL that rarely procs on single target fights.

Paladins really needs to be looked at lol.

2 Likes
245

Yeah, and I think this is really going to be highlighted in the Hero Tree designs. And hopefully not ignored. >.>

If I linked this build and said this was my Raid Build that I enjoy running, would you ever run this with Herald of the Sun? Probably not.

You’d be missing Penitence, Burning Crusade, Searing Light, and along with that, Expurgation.

The Ret tree is designed in a way that not only forces ST vs AoE, but also Holystrike vs Radiant. Now with Hero Talents being introduced, those divides within the spec are only going to become worse.

While on the surface, the Hero Trees seem like well designed synergetic trees, where the vocal min/maxers will claim it is amazing.

I think in actuality they will just be an extension of this divided tree, which will leave everyone else feeling like they haven’t swapped their talents in 8 months… =/

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246

I personally beleive rets and the class will get a talent tree revision. They kinda have to. And the hero talents seems to hint they will.

(Otherwise what is the point of adding HoW crit when we already can get 100% in the class tree?)

This is par the course with blizz’s history with talents tree’s anyways. They really like to shake them up every expansion.

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Not that Divine Steed is a good talent or the majority of Paladins despising it for how garbage it is (for SEVERAL EXPANSIONS)…

But they opt to give DKs (2 GRIPS, 1 MASSGRIP) Death Charge… Divine Steed on steroids.

WRONG CLASS. (UNLESS I DIDN’T SEE THE NEW MOBILITY PALADINS GOT)

DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH I SACRIFICED?

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and paladin can reach targets a mile away? legit the only issue ret has in pvp is that horse can be stopped and need a extraglobal to freedom while dk got horse on steroids.

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I think the real take away from this “Steed” talent for DK is this…

If you’re gonna change a class mobility spell, don’t make a low effort attempt such as what Divine Steed ending up being.

For all it’s fault and silliness, the DK talent shows it can be thematic and cool if you put an effort into building around the idea such as what Riders of the Apocalypse evokes.

Divine Steed was slapped on Paladin, just “because” they felt like changing it.
D3 transfered devs came in and copy-pasted D3 Steed with none of the actual cool perks it had.

None of this would even be a subject for discussion if we never had it or if it was cool to begin with.

I don’t know how locked in the Hero tree talents are, I suspect Paladin Class tree is getting reworked because of some of the talents we find in them don’t make sense otherwise and because it is objectively a problematic class tree.

If they are, they should consider replacing steed or at least severely reduce the amount of points needed to get it fully upgraded.

1 Like
250

I’m seeing a lot of death charger jelly here, but paladins still have extended melee range.

Frost dks would kill for that.

There’s a reason almost 22% of all heroic raid dps parses are ret paladins (ranged and melee combined). It’s also overwhelmingly the most played spec in M+.

Just glance at warcraft logs and raderio, stats are all there.

Compared to a lot of specs, ret’s in a very good place. Currently one of the highest FOTM specs in wow history.

I’d be more worried about nerfs for the sake of game diversity if Blizz can’t find a way to make other specs as consistent and fun to play.

251

theyre talking about pvp where death charger is much more impactful

1 Like
252

Any thoughts on Ret during the War Within beta?

I’m busy and can’t play it right now but would like to hear the thoughts of fellow Rets on the matter!

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pvp or pve? cause i have some words about pve that im sure alot of people wont like

254

So, spill it.

255

radiant glory is the main issue with alot of issues with templar and herald (herald has perma dot perma 40% haste and 10 lazers that want you to be infront of the boss for maximum damage), it also simplifies the spec way more than it should, ret literally has no cooldown cause its baked into wake of ashes, it makes wake of ashes bloated, it makes all the changes to templar strike pointless cause you have no g cds to press ts cause of how frequent hammer of wrath is, it procs nets you a average of 65% wing uptime which is alot so expect the rng to get nerfed, removed, or wings itself to get nerfed, were slowly going back to a worse cd stacking with es,wake, dt, divine hammer (30, 30, 1min,2min or 30sec, 1min, 1min,2min) compared to (30,30,1min 1min) in live divine hammer is a worse 2min cd than crusade cause it incentives you to press nothing but generators to keep up its uptime as much as you can, divine hammers very existence is a crime and shouldnt be in the middle of the tree, wake nerfed cause it was moved upward.

non of the current issues are solved at all and radiant glory only adds to the issue since its the source of every new issue regarding ret. they have to remove its rng proc or remove radiant glory cause this is unsustainable, i dont want the core spec to be nerfed nor hero talents should be nerfed to make space for radiant glory

1 Like
256

Making divine steed more streamlined with an inbuilt snare break would be rad.

Having to double up on either BoF or Hallowed Ground is a bit cumbersome. It’d be nice if they just allowed us access to Steed of Glory as a pvp talent or something

I haven’t played the beta nor am I a top tier player so I don’t have a fantastic game grasp on the pvp landscape to be fair

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My main focus for balance is PvP. As I understand it Ret happens to do quite well in Raid and has a pretty solid hold on being top tier in M±. TWW talents seem to help it even more so in M+.

For PVP, a few issues will arise in nearly all PvP encounters.

Some of these can remain but having all possible in the same match feels bad.

Rets off healing and self healing is so low I’m not sure it can be considered a hybrid for PVP.

4-5min defensives that if allowed to remain last 8 seconds, but usually are removed early by 2 seconds casts, sometimes by 1 min CD dispells.

Those dispelled defensives still applied Forbearance so enjoy your added vulnerability for up to 28 seconds while up to 3 other defensives cannot be used on you.

Lacking tools most melee have is apparent and a large hindrance to success while still doing less damage at range than in melee range, and less damage than a lot of specs if you were to be ignored. Ret cannot possibly bring to the group:
Disarm
Lust
Instant mobility
MS effect
Spammable CC or multiple instant cast CCs that won’t break from damage
Effective self healing from doing damage
Fall protection outside of Bubble or BoP which are required to use to live for a bit fighting almost anyone
Blessing of Spellwarding protects who has it active from exactly 0 magical CCs
Blessing of Freedom is dispellable and stealable with Blessing of Spellwarding active so mobility is slower than normal running speed during most combat instances.
Invisibility.

There’s not necessarily a thematic reason for Ret to gain most of the above tools it lacks, but neutering it’s healing, armor, AND damage was made worse due to it’s tool kit having these gaps, and it is also one of the most visually telegraphed specs. Countering what a Ret is doing effectively requires no add ons or weak auras. You just know what you have to do to prevent what Ret is doing because your eyes are open.

Since it’s tier set for two consecutive seasons revolved around buffing DoTs that are dispelled in PVP, Ret hasn’t been in the best place. Ret has nearly all offensive abilities and PvP talents and defensive and healing talents nerfed in PVP so seeing a Ret crushing the meter in M± doesn’t translate to good damage or survivability in PvP.

When Ret, with all of the other weaknesses were still present, was tuned to do threatening damage, I was happy, that lasted 3 days. Recently I stopped being stubborn and rerolled to MM hunter and my BG and Blitz experience greatly improved, and long time hunters swear MM is terribly designed and need a total rework. If MM is garbage and needs a rework like the Hunter thread suggests, but it is leagues above Ret for a good portion of the PVP content, Rets gotten a pretty bad rework/follow up tuning.

On the positive side, TWW looks great for Ret. Lots of specs got new cool additions to their kit, instead Ret got, more damage including more cleave and AoE. Unfortunately if they leave Ret overtuned it won’t be intentional to counter it’s weaknesses, and will be responded to with unreasonably harsh nerfs since Ret isn’t allowed to be a strong contender.

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258

I’m just a regular player, not a theorycrafter or anything, but I’d like to see Divine Steed gone and replace it with group/raid movement buffs based on “inspiration” in combat. I don’t know exactly how it would need to be designed, but instead of the horse something like Mass Freedom/Unbound Freedom or spending X Holy Power or doing X damage or whatever boosts movement speed shortly, bake in LotL into Judgment, that kind of stuff.

I’ve always liked the idea of Rets having group buffs based on ability usage. Employing your full toolkit (in a non-degen way, does that even exist in WoW?) helps out the group. Maybe instead of Retribution Aura, it’s Inspiration Aura, buffing different aspects of gameplay as your abilities are used. Obviously it couldn’t be OP, but something a bit more proactive yet thematic.

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259

In raid and M± where the enemy isn’t removing your utility/defensives and they aren’t nerfed heavily, being able to protect others with Blessings and emergency heals is right up there with some of the Augmentation defensives for usefulness. For PVP you using utility just gifts enemies a reason to press their buttons that negate it. Lots of folks have complained that a Ret can just pop bubble and send damage, but it can’t. The Bubble, BoP, or BoS is just removed 2 seconds into your 20 or so seconds of burst damage and you are back to needing to spend GCDs pressing your other two defensives and hopefully survive until wings ends, and wings is nerfed in PVP too, it is just sad.

Alright, MM opened on me from Narnia while I’m in combat at the objective. Pop Bubble or BoP to chase the Hunter, need steed to get there, press steed as Bubble or BoP is dispelled, enemy applies slow, root, or snare, or even several of them. Cast Freedom on my healer granting it to myself as well to get a few seconds of my steed, mage steals Freedom or it is dispelled, slowed, snared ext again. CC ends, healer spent all their CDs on me so I survived getting kited this long, lets steed again and catch the MM, then I get feared, now I’m fast in the wrong direction, die while Forbearance from the Bubble or BoP I casted 20 seconds ago is still active. Get called a noob while I was previously told “just kill the Hunter” was the solution to MMs range and damage advantage.

260

Me and my friend played a bit last night.

It’s pretty much feels like DF Ret. A lot of the stat changes were good, but they aren’t really noticeable gameplay differences, just better scaling.

Mainly, this is just my opinion;

Class:

  • Visuals have been slightly updated, but a majority remain lackluster.
    • No update to Auras, Blessings, Mounts, and FR, Searing Light and Hammer of Light all pretty much look the same
  • Class Tree saw very little changes, with really only the nerf to HoW and the removal of Crusader’s Reprieve
    • Losing the range on our Interrupt, along with the ST Self Healing Crusader’s Reprieve provided feels bad. The talent needed tuning, not a deletion. (Yet JV still remains, lol)
  • Our Capstones remain pretty underwhelming, don’t reflect the spec they are designed around, and being able to get all 3 still feels like there’s really no interesting choices.

Ret:

  • Our Builders are still stagnant, all feeling like clones of one another
    • I think this is why a lot of players express they feel like something is missing with the spec, but can’t really pin point what it is, and ultimately what leads to that repetitive gameplay.
  • Our Talent Builds can feel very cookie cutter, with a majority of talents being spent on QoL things like Blessed Champion, Blade of Vengeance and Jurisdiction.
    • This is usually more of a problem for Mythic+ players than Raiders/PvPers tho
  • The update to Judge, Jury and Executioner and Vanguard of Justice feel pretty underwhelming
    • Idk how much you care for these things, but Paladins do have synergetic talents, like Inquisitor’s Ire and Empyrean Legacy but they feel “hidden” within the spec and aren’t encouraged more as an apparent gameplay style. These talents feel very similar.
  • Divine Hammer feels pretty undercooked. It needs a capstone and 2 support talents to work, but it’s still pretty degen button smash gameplay.
  • Radiant Glory is degen gameplay, makes the class even more simplistic and braindead… zzzzzzzzzz…
    • There’s zero reason why this isn’t the choice node of Wings, especially considering Wings is just a stat stick cooldown. It’s pretty boring.
  • Ret Capstones are pretty much the same, default into the WoA ones, ignore the FR/ES ones, then take whichever passive is more valuable for your content.

Hero Talents:

  • Herald of the Sun is fun, but feels like it makes you default into a lot of Radiant/DoT talents for the synergy. Removes some choice.
    • Doesn’t add a whole lot of gameplay, but also doesn’t pump with visuals, so it’s w/e.
  • Templar is pretty underwhelming imo. I think a lot of the hype blinded people to the underlining issues, much like the Ret and Holy revamps have, lol.
    • Hammer of Light just feels like Final Reckoning 2.0 and does almost nothing for high content tanks

PvP:

Don’t think anything’s changed? Still 8/10 dead talents

So, for everything I’ve tested so far, it has felt one step forward, 2 steps back. =/

2 Likes
261

Thanks for the detailed update.

It’s sad to hear not much is changing and if anything, it’s becoming more reductionist.

We can only hope that our dead talents are visited and given some flavor. There are too many useless talents that aren’t remotely viable in both trees that need to be erased.

I was looking at Ret raid log representation not that long ago, and Ret is the most played class by miles. Several thousand players under Ret was BM Hunter, then several thousand was Shadow Priest, then the rest of the classes.

Now would be the time to cash in on one of the most attractive specs in the game.

1 Like
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Continuing the discussion from The War Within Beta Development Notes:

Sadly they’re removing even more skill from Paladins for the sake of Mythic+. :frowning:

Now we’ll have to deal with breaking CCs in PvP, and losing out on the skill cap of getting and keeping enemies out of stealth, and using Hallowed Ground when fighting DKs.