Rets, calling all rets - pvp/pve buffs? thoughts? ideas?

Classes Paladin
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Well, I understand different classes are different, but what I don’t understand is where you draw the line when it begins to look like this:

Imgur

The duration, range, whether the stun is AoE or not, is going to vary from Class to Class, and not every spec is going to have stuns, etc… That’s not lost on me.

But when 12/13 classes that DO have a stun, happens to be a physical stun… at what point is that last class just the odd man out? At what point is the game just designed and balanced around a certain metric?

If “different classes are different” than why aren’t things like Asphyxiate, Chastise, and Snowdrift Magical as well? Why isn’t Lasso, Fel Eruption or “Axe Toss” (could be renamed) a Curse?

And while this does just showcase stuns, it applies to so much more of the class. Bubble, BoP, Freedom, etc…

  • Has “Dispels are supposed to be your weakness!” just not kept up with the pace of the game?
  • Do Paladins have strengths that offset that weakness to dispels?
  • Have Classes gained abilities that rival Paladin abilities, without the weakness of dispels?
    • Turtle, Nether Walk, Tranq, Ice Block, Arch Angel, etc…

Is it the Class or is it the spells?

  • Can I choose between having my stun be a Physical Stun, but only last 4 seconds?
    • Diamond Ice for Example…
  • Can I choose to not be able to attack during Bubble, but passively heal for 70% of my HP?

If the answer is no, why not?

Why does this class feel so backwards compared to everyone else in Modern Day WoW?

3 Likes
223

Even though medium size group pvp content is my jam, Blinding Light is pretty much just an interrupt in group content if enemies are not already rolling an immunity. I’ve been using repentance a bit more lately with some success. But yeah, that’s also dispelable.

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Pardon my ignorance, but that should mean a pally’s stun isn’t on the same diminishing returns as every other stun. Is that the case? Could you put a pally on a heavy stun group and let your team go nuts until DR gets heavy and them lock them down for a full 6 seconds?

225

Nah, all stuns share the same DR.

Paladin’s just so happen to have the only single target stun that is dispellable.

Warlocks have Shadowfury, and DHs have Choas Nova, but that is in addition to their other stuns, Axe Toss and Fel Eruption respectfully, so it’s not really the same.

The point is just to showcase how singled out the Paladin class is when it comes to these types of situations, where Paladins are designed and balanced around this archaic class fantasy that just doesn’t hold up in today’s modern game.

And the fact that HoJ lasts for 6 seconds is a benefit to the spell, sure, but a majority of deaths happen within the 3 sec mark, rarely that extra 2 seconds of stun is going to play a part in someone dying, sadly.

There’s more value in a undispellable 4 second stun, than a 6 second dispellable one because every healer has a dispel now-a-days.

(Again, the issue branches out to Snares, Bubble, BoP, etc…)

Edit:

The main question to get answered is:

Are we balanced around our spells or is it a limiting factor of “Class Fantasy?”

  • If it is just balancing of the spells, can we have the options to change them?
    • An exampe is Hunter’s Trap being changed to Diamond Ice[PvP Talent]
  • If it is Class Fantasy, then why aren’t other classes held to this same standard?
    • Why isn’t Blind a Poison effect again?
    • Why isn’t Blinding Sleet a magical effect that breaks on damage?
    • Why isn’t Deep Breath a Magical effect?
    • etc…
3 Likes
226

I’m hoping that the huge divide between single target talents and AOE talents is addressed.

I dunno about other classes, but not a fan of half.of the tree being tailored around single target and vice versa. I believe ret suffers the most from this

I feel like the different sides should defined by theme and / or playstyle outside of AOE/single.

Like at first during the .0.7 ptr, I was hoping that the holystrike side would focus on melee while the radiant side would be more focused on the mid ranged play style.

Holystrike could have been more mobile but squishy, while radiant had more ranged but much slower.

Also, our leap…

Still think that should be a choice node between Leap and calvary

5 Likes
227

One boring but effective “fix” could be removing power from some AoE or ST only talents or abilities to then add the power baseline into abilities used for both AoE and ST. In Raid and M+, if baseline abilities used in all content was buffed enough to warrant nerfing AoE or ST specific ones, maybe we would see 2million damage in stacked cleave from a WoA cast, and 800k from Divine toll, while outside of that burst of damage HP spenders wouldnt do much. If its the same overall damage, that works for pve but the devs wont allow that for pvp.

This method is difficult to balance in pvp and makes talents reduced in damage to move the damage into baseline abilities causes more issues, like “1 shots”. No one wants to lose 50% of their health from Divine Toll or 100% of their health from WoA.

Weaker talents means more talents can be avoided, we call those “dead talents”, dead talents are not a good thing. With the talents, abilities, and pvp talents we have currently afflicted by 30%-50%-80% pvp nerfs, Rets are already far weaker for pvp than when in pve(and now have less armor).

While ST takes a large reduction to have the highest AoE and vis vera, Ret is doing quite well in Raid and M+ for overall damage done with inconvenient talent builds that dont offer much chance of being good at AoE and ST with one build.

228

Was thinking about this playing some SS earlier. One of the things that feels really bad on Paladins is the lack of class fantasy in PvP.

Obviously it’s a lot easier to see this on Pet classes within the game, but there’s a lot of that epic class fantasy in the game that’s just baked into your class that you can see and feel on others, but doesn’t feel like you can on Paladins.

Some classes are going to have it better than others, but some examples are:

  • Demon Hunter, you’re just always flopping around as a Demon.
  • Hunter, you’re summoning a zoo of beasts to attack your target.
  • Warlock, same thing, different zoo or opening rifts and portals.
  • Spriest, you summon little void things to attack and slow your enemies.
  • DK, obviously summons Undead.
  • Shaman has Totems with static link, earthgrab, tide, etc…

These things feel very integrated into the classes.

I think the closest thing we have to this feeling is the Talent Divine Arbiter, however, I don’t think that talent is noticeable enough or kindof theme’d very well for being a Paladin.

It just feels like another Holy projectile that’s lost in the mess of the game.

Not to say this is what it should be, but I think that talent would be better if at 25 stacks, it made your next Templar’s Verdict buff Might on you and another ally, or something along those lines. Even if it was PvP Talent.

Example:

Divine Justiciar [PvP Talent]
Dealing damage with Divine Arbiter now also buffs Blessing of Kings, Blessing of Might, or Blessing of Wisdom on up to 3 allies within your Aura, changing based on Specialization.

There has to be more “identity” that you can incorporate into that baseline feel of Paladins…

Similar thing would be for Auras in PvP, and I think an example for that is Aura of Reckoning. While I like the idea of Reckoning as a Talent, too me it doesn’t feel much like an “Aura.”

One of the concepts or ideas I’d like to see made for PvP Auras, is one grows in strength as you take damage or are damaged by a negative effect.

Example:

Salvation Aura
Reduces all damage taken by 5% and reduces the duration of poison and disease effects by 20%.

When you or allies within your Aura take nature damage, gain Pure of Heart. Upon 100 stacks, you and all allies within your aura are cleanse of all poison and disease effects and are immune to such effects for 8 sec.

Or something along the lines of gaining a strengthening aura that you can visually see getting stronger. Or possibility going up and down in strength to create these “pockets” of strength, from 20% duration reduction → 40 → 60%, then from 60% back down to 40 → 20%, etc…

Imgur

2 Likes
229

This isn’t really exclusive to paladin. I admit I haven’t played every class, but all of the classes I have played use a different build for single target and aoe. I’m just glad ret doesn’t have to deal with target caps.

230

its not a unique issue for ret, but ret has the worst if it. granted i wouldnt mind a split if our boss damage is huge and our aoe is huge seperately

231

Play ret in pvp now is not fun compare with other classes. We are the 99.9% the target to kill in an arena cause we are a very squishy class, we are almost all the time in a slow or in a root cause we have no mobility, we have a super slow gcd that don´t let us react quickly to nothing, no one respect our wing damage anymore since our damage is slow and low, our talent trees have all the cool options nerfed so we don´t have differents build and our pvp talents are a big joke. The sad thing is they not gonna change nothing at this point, we only have to pray for the next exp the do something good with our hero talents.

233

Feral/Boomkin/Enhance hybrid HPS buffs but zero for Ret, smadge.

2 Likes
234

Yeah, I was a bit surprised to not see Paladin healing tuned a bit, especially when seeing Enh. Shaman got a slight buff.

I’m hoping Paladins get a revamp to their PvP Talents in Season 4, since it will probably be quite the dead/throw away season and they can experiment a bit, but not having a PTR for it shows little hope. =/

Next expansion will fix it!™

2 Likes
235

As a ret pvp’er, I just want Flash of Light to be useful enough that I can top myself up after a fight. Right now the spell is useless for us.

2 Likes
236

As far as I heard ALL of our healing is useless to us. Maybe execpt LoH unless
I am wrong.

1 Like
237

Well from a pvp perspective, to be fair, WoG was overpowered at one point. Still, there’s no point even giving people abilities that have been rendered useless.

2 Likes
238

Even our passive healing is a joke lol.

What’s the point in creating talents or skills meant to be self healing if they barely heal a tickle lol.

But yes, you are correct, what’s the point of giving us healing spells or skills (poor JV) that is rendered useless.

3 Likes
239

Probably one of the only hybrids relying on Mage food in pvp after combat’s over, if we live.

1 Like
240

We have great burst but is it just me or does it feel like our sustain is mediocre? I burst but once CDs are down my DPS just drops… All in all I agree with OPs post.

2 Likes
241

Because they’re not meant for PVP.
It’s meant to be a little bit of utility in PVE.

The majority of what they develop is meant as PVE features with very few things being purposefully made for PVP.

The hero talents are a great example, majority of the nodes are PVE things with 1-2 talents being clearly made for PVP as their isn’t any practical use for what they do in PVE.

And even for PVE, the off-healing/passive healing is starting to creep upward to unhealthy levels.

We’re not at the point where it’ll affect the majority of players but MDI showed what is to come if they don’t start thinking about toning that down or at least keeping it where it is.

It’s fine if top performing players can pull off doing things without healers but it needs to remain a fringe thing only few can accomplish through sheer dedication and planning.

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CS healing and JV self healing is for utility?

I wouldn’t call passive defensives as utility.

I can sorta understand outgoing healing, but self healing nerfs is just silly to make them too weak.