Rets, calling all rets - pvp/pve buffs? thoughts? ideas?

Classes Paladin
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Hi. This is your 3KXP 3’s /3.5XP solos/ex-Mythic raider/once upon a time top 10 US M+ Ret Captain speaking. (Yes, I play most content. Posting experience to solely express I play Ret somewhere on the top-end, and my thoughts are based on the top-end issues of Ret)

Just curious when some buffs or changes will be implemented to that reworked class you guys just did… the one that is failing to perform… after some great ideas brewing in the coming rework… Ret was spit out with half-baked ideas and the same issues it suffered from. (But dude!!! It’s more convenient to play now it’s so much better now!!! Copers get out)

Fellow Rets, what’s your feedback? Surely plenty will come and say “our class is fine, hush now” but the OG high content rollers know what this is about.

We need a bigger voice on this, and I’m tired that my main class that I only want to play is still gunned down in PVP/PVE post rework.
(It took 2 weeks after rework patch before endless nerfs until we ended up where we started) (lol UDK, DH, BM 4 weeks in now current patch where they at doe? ((still the best specs PVP/PVE by landslide))

(Wait, this just in!!! Rogue and DH are busted OP post rework. Where are the drastic changes? The overdone nerfs? The cries from the bleachers? GIGAKEK!!! No one cares when the dual-wielding leather emo boys dab on everyone!?!? Okay in seriousness, don’t need to nerf those classes to oblivion but bring the bottom end up, release the shackles placed upon us)

Class bias, you say? No, I truly aim to be objective and want to be competitive while enjoying my class. I don’t desire Ret to be a rework monstrosity. (Ret/UDK/DH/Rogue)

Here’s some ideas for one of the most popular specs in the game that is currently a wounded, maimed, dying animal:

  • How about some reverts on our kit nerfs in PVP? Writing a list of spells would be writing down every ability we have. It’s insane considering the output of other classes right now.
  • Revisit both our class and spec trees? Get rid of bland and choiceless, instead breathe life into the trees! (Proof = Rogue/DH rework) Can I get a “Guardian of the Ancient Kings” return? Capstones with meaning?
  • Help change the disparity between choosing AOE/ST and not be a wet noodle when doing one or the other? (Ret is near the bottom in raid/PVP scenarios, and while M+ is a kinder story, the struggle resets on Tyrannical keys due to the AOE/ST issue)
  • Create damage outside of Wings!!! If we were nerfed because of burst strength, then give us sustain. Ideas? Pandemic on Expurgation? Radiance burn DOTs? “Think Mark, think!” Seals??
  • Create mobility or breakers for the class (Steed of garbage is bad) (Emancipation, Pursuit of Justice, real long Arm of the Law, we literally sit endless root/CC while survival/HPS is gutted and are supposed to just be okay) The class was reworked cause it was getting slaughtered in PVP and it still is. (Locks top fragging DPS while passive HPS is half your DPS) Hybrids outhealed by mages and locks? Huh???
  • Tier??? LOL underperforming garbage. Y’all ain’t revising that obviously, so make it mean something in all content. (Add Expurgation w/ Pandemic effect like BFA as 2-set reward?)
  • Honor talents? Nerfed into borderline useless Lumin, Aura of Reck, Judge Dispel all gutted and removed Veng Aura??? Huh??? Let’s remove dead ones (Ret Aura Res rofl) and add useful ones, possibly revert some changes? Different aura against different comps?
  • Auras… a sensitive topic. My opinion you ask surely? They all suck safe for Devotion of course. New Ret Aura incentivizes taking heavy damage to activate a buff? That’s what we came up with after the last one no one liked? Instead give useful auras based on spec and make raids and groups want to bring your spec! Any paladin can bring Devo or Ret Aura. Provide specs a need to be desired.
  • Blessings! Here’s my legendary idea most would agree with. Bring back blessings and spec-based. Might = Ret, Kings = Prot, Wisdom = Holy. Remove dead tree talents (so many of those) shove these bad boys in and create a desire for certain specs in different content. Just an idea and to help bring class fantasy back.
  • Dare I say… Seals? Many ways to bring them in, providing light utility in various situations and possibly provide a more satisfying gameplay loop that is desperately needed. Also a way to provide additional DPS without compromising the spec. (Wishful thinking on Seals, Blessings, and Auras but I nonetheless will express my ideas for a better tomorrow)
  • Consecration… Bad design for Prots, useless for Rets, why not try and help it? Allow it to slowly follow you or stick to character? Provide additional benefits to Ret? AOE healing for Holy?
  • Ret Mastery? It’s objectively worse than Vers. Improve, change… not only bland but it’s a reason why Ret is suffering.
  • Also, the legendary axe doesn’t change what is fundamentally wrong with the spec, and it won’t be the gap closer Ret needs to thrive and exist.
    That’s it for now but more to come my brethren.

Agree or disagree? Don’t care. Post about it. Botched rework needs to be saved by the light and it is our duty.

I speak from the heart and despite your opinions on the matter, let us be civil and kind to each other Paladins. We are brothers of the Crusade. We all want the same thing even if we do not yet know it. Do not attack each other. We must unify!

Speak out. Share your views with respect!

Together we can make Ret great again.

23 Likes
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I agree deeply with everything here, I come mainly from a PvP perspective but i feel oir damage is the most balanced in PvP it feels like its not simply becsuse people can heal right through our burst due to lack of Healing Reduction from the spec.

Also if im not incorrect Ret got a hotfix the thursday (2days) after the rework because if how much people were complaining.

DH, Rogue and Warlock (which i have been complaining about for the last 4 exp) have all been ridiculously OP in PvP and have been overperforming for a long time. Rogues had their time of being ehhh, and same with DH so im not too upset right now with how they perform but Warlock? Just remove that class please its like they have Main Character plot armor since BFA.

Guardian of the Ancient Kings! Yes!!!
Blessing of Kings/Might/Wisdom Yes!!!
Seals yes!!!
Emancipation super yesssss.
Revert Mastery nerf Yes!!!
Revert Defencive nerfs Yesss!

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I mean sure but could have left the mayus key u tapped for this.

I would be happy with just 3 things as a quick bandaid fix.

Unnerf mastery.
Remove mana cost from wog.
Make freedom undispellable with unbound freedom talented.

After that sure you can try other things to fix the tree long term (what should have been done with the rework but here we are)

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Hard no on anything more than utility seals and no micro-rotational management either.
1 hour apply buff that does whatever.

News flash that’s basically Judgement of light…
No one uses mana anymore except healers so not really an option.
What other utility can it provide realistically?

Try to come up up with something they could possibly do, AKA not something bunkers if you stop and think more than 2 sec about it.

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I have an issue with wasted HP gains and judgement debuffs.

Between talents like Divine Resonance and Cstrikes, we have a lot of passive HP generation that gets wasted.

Id like for a way to not be so wasteful when running passive HP generation.

What about pooping glowing orbs when over capping HP that grant an HP after running tbrough it.

As for wasted judgement debuffs.

HLJ and DR (once again) has made it easy to waste judgement buffs. Hell DR on its own does that. HLJ just aggravates it.

HLJ just makes judgement wasteful outside of DR ticks.

So perhaps make judgement have more stacks baseline and redesign HLJ to increase the damage of each debuff the more stacks the enemy has while decreasing as stacks are consumed.

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Current tier set fsvors wasting judgement amp and that is midnboggling. They designed a set with that in mind. Just think of it this reminds me of 9.2 set where everyone complainef snd they didnt back off with the seraphin slotmachine on art of war procs.

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GNnneeaaaahhhh not entirely, there’s some nuance to this statement.

It’s a DPS loss to not use judgement for your next spender if you don’t have the set bonus active.

You’re not encouraged to waste your HP, by all account you try to avoid this situation, but you’re better off wasting it for your spender than spending and casting it afterward.

So to summarize, if you can spend and judgement is on CD, you spend.
But if you can spend and judgement is up than you judgement and spend.

Ideally, you don’t put yourself in that position but with CSAA that’s not a given, far from it.

It’s less of a loss to do this, but still a loss.

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So, I have a few takes for PvE specifically;

Biggest Issue I have: Paladins have an ability, Instrument of Retribution, that gives you free Avenging Wraths every time someone dies AND is effected by talents such as Divine Wrath to increase that uptime even further. If ret isn’t at or near the top of the charts at the start of a patch when everyone is learning/dying during fights and kills on bosses, they are likely way underperforming.

Proposed Tweaks to Existing Talents:
Divine Arbiter: Increase damage dealt to secondary targets
How this interacts w/ other talents: Divine Arbiter works on a per hit basis, anything that increases your Holystrike hits is a net gain for the value you get out of this talent. This means that you get an extra charge of Divine Arbiter per additional target up to 5 when taking the Blessed Champion talent, allowing your Crusader Strike/Judgment to cleave.

This change would allow Ret to have a more defined Focus Target/Cleave build, something that every boss in this raid seems to have, allowing Divine Arbiter procs to hit harder on cleave targets while focusing on Final Verdicts gives the spec a bit more flexibility. Any value decided on should be weighed to not overtake Searing Light builds for AoE, but bridge the gap somewhat.

In this suggestion, you are still required to dump some points into an AoE centric talent, Blessed Champion to make the build work.

Blessed Champion: Increase Crusader Strike/Judgment damage on primary target
Simple change, gives the talent some single target value

Shield of Vengeance: Allow it to interact with Execution Sentence/Avenging Wrath
Hot take: This ability should be the skillshot one with Ret, it’s flavorful and allowing it to interact with/damage modified by those abilities would make it a more interesting button to use during our burst windows.

Divine Wrath: Remove it and replace it with some kind of interaction with Retribution Aura, either 100% uptime or something similar to make a Ret paladin bringing Ret aura more valuable than Prot or Holy with Ret Aura. It doesn’t have to be a huge difference, but make it a difference

Crusade: Remove it and replace it with Sanctified Wrath
If the intent of that node is sustained vs. big chunky cooldown, Crusade fails to deliver. Sanctified Wrath meshes better with our other burst options and doesn’t have that weird ramping mechanic from when it was competing with older talent designs.

Divine Auxiliary: split into two talents; “Final Reckoning and Execution’s Sentence now cast a Templar’s Verdict when cast” and “Final Reckoning and Execution’s Sentence now cast Divine Storm when cast” as a choice node.
Effect: The holy power on use doesn’t really do much when other talents give us so much already, it effectively delivers the intent of the effect

Divine Auxiliary suggestion #2: change it to allow Flash of Light to generate Holy Power and be castable while auto attacking. This allows for some fun gameplay with hardcasts that doesn’t punish you for casting or simplifying it by using Light’s Celerity and allows ret to more concretely carve out a niche as an offhealer support dps.

Divine Hammer: Increase it’s damage a bit and have it generate a holy power
Impact on Talents: There’s a really cool combination that anyone should be able to see between the timings of Divine Hammer’s cooldown, Empyrean Legacy procs, and Sanctify, that could be a fun combo to effectively nail in conjunction with the rest of our burst windows that currently isn’t very good numerically when compared to passive Consecrated Blade and other talents. Divine Hammer hitting a bit harder and also generating 1 Holy Power would, again, give Ret a bit more options for light AoE builds that still functionally focus on ST while giving us some more skillshot combos to pull off.

Class Tree:
Incandescence/Touch of Light: these talents are awful, I am not sure what you should replace em with but they really need to be replaced. I’ve tested both and the amount of damage they contribute is abysmal.

Lightforged Blessing: Make it scale off the Paladins’s attack power instead of being based on maximum health. A well geared Ret should heal more than a lesser geared ret. You can tune it around the idea that equal geared players are still getting around 2%, having it do better for lower geared players is both flavorful and mechanically feels better.

Final Thoughts: All of these ideas are suggested with PvE in mind- I cannot speak to the level Ret is at in PvP.

Every time Ret has ever gotten some kind of rework, we end up getting giga overpowered/overrepresented in PvP and they end up making killer nerfs to both PvE and PvP.

I do not feel Ret was at all OP in PvE at any point this expansion and the slight adjustments they’ve made to rebuff us back to where we were prior to those first rounds of nerfs post-rework and the fact that we are still well below everyone ON PROGRESSION CONTENT WHERE PEOPLE ARE DYING REGULARLY FOR MORE AVENGING WRATH UPTIME speaks to a certain callous disregard of the developers when it comes to this spec.

I am frustrated and thoroughly disenfranchised at the lack of care given to the spec; I don’t like having to play Holy to get into groups every expansion just so i can gear up the spec i actually want to play. It’s really frustrating and I really wish it wasn’t such a norm. They seem reluctant to share any of Holy’s utility with Ret, or even give Ret something that’s totally unique to them and that really bugs me given that every other hybrid spec that comes to mind has something that has consistent value across content.

2 Likes
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I understand not wanting seals as they were, I disagree, I like having more to do. However…

In my utopia…
Seals can function as a raid debuff except needing application (i.e., hunter’s mark) long debuff that serve in different scenarios. Can be same as DH (magic debuff) WW (physical debuff) Warrior (atk power) except with less value but still useful or be completely new and bring appeal (aura rework in OG post can also solve this).

Turn Judgement of Light into a real spell we use for group sustain is a good start. (we can’t take it nor divine purpose due bad tree) our hybrid ability is dead outside of some 20-year-old abilities they left for us (BoP, BoS, BoF).

Or if no one wants ret to be useful as a raid debuffer to any extent, create seals that don’t break the game but add importance. (Seal of Spellconditioning = target’s next cast is 25% less effect or reflects portion like old eye for an eye, Seal of Encumbrance = target is slowed heavily in tiny sanctified ground, if they clear the zone before expiration inflict short duration stun or act as vortex, Seal of Vindication = lower attack damage or stat %)

It can be new (doubtful and risky) or can take from other classes (curses, past expacs, raid debuffs and more likely/safe)

There is so much room and history to help bring flavor back to the class without keeping it into a below-average DPS bot. Seals are a familiar way to do so.

Also caking judge of light into judgement as a talent point isn’t a seal on top of it being useless. It’s not the only dead talent though. (golden path, seal of mercy, strength of conviction, obduracy, incandescence/touch of light (choice node btw and that’s only the class tree)

If that’s how you want your seal integration then I believe at least it should provide meaningful use. Possibly choice nodes between strong seals to ensure reduced button bloat but add useful decision making?

In my eyes, it’s very possible to find a healthy medium within the many dead talents that plague all paladin trees.

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Well said and great ideas. I agree with most of them. Some of my thoughts.

  • Shield of Vengeance: Needs a lot of love. Especially in PVP as it needs to be paired with Divine Protection to not vaporize and even with our 20% reduction added, just terrible. The damage return is also weak in all content even if utilized to it’s best case scenario - ST.

  • Divine Wrath: Another dead talent it’s almost comical. Definitely should provide different benefits and either interact with Wings or removed completely.

  • Crusade: Currently Rets are forced into this in PVP because 1min AW is nerfed to provide 10% DAM/HEAL/CRIT (Crusade is capped to 23% DAM/HASTE in PVP). My take - REVERT PVP NERF to AW before doing anything to Crusade. Choice node of what secondary stat we couple with AW?

  • Divine Auxiliary: Should be re-conceptualized. This applies to Executioner’s Will too. Boring and bad modifiers that take 2 key stone points.

  • Divine Hammer: Such a missed mark. As is, it does less damage vs Consecration, and is target capped versus baseline Consecration. Another bad choice node. !!!BUFF!!! Or convert into powerful spell into light cleave. Another ability brought back to sit in the dust.

  • Incandescence/Tough of Light: Dead node. Waste of space and creates illusion of choice on class tree. Bad design. Needs severe revisiting.

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I got the baby on me and I’m answering with one hand but this got my attention.

The hybrid state has been removed.
It was a feature at some point, yes, but now its more of a side quirk.

They don’t want DPS having the ability to heal in a sustainable manner because you get situations like we got previous season where you see people completing keys with 4 DPS and no healer.

It was a thing when the lines between roles weren’t as well defined as they are now, when the game leaned more on the dnd style rather than action game.

But they evolved away from that and I don’t see them coming back.

That’s why classic is there.

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It’s interesting because despite the cancelation of hybrid classes being able to heal, some still do.

In PVP, Elemental can easily do over 30k HPS and that’s before casting. (Earth Shield, Healing Stream Totem, Ancestral Guidance) You can throw Enhance in there. Lock has insane static HPS with Soul Leech. Shadow Priest gets locked out on shadow and spam Flash Heal for 20% of their health per cast… A couple of examples with the point being DPS classes that aren’t hybrid can self-sustain and other hybrids still have ridiculous healing potential. Why gut Ret rework HPS (which was a new way to survive again) for hybrid tuning then let all other classes keep sustain off-heals? Last season WARRIOR could heal more with Impending Victory, Ignore Pain, and Fueled by Violence and have Mortal Strike. The list can go on. Not to mention these classes a plethora of CC(some spammable) in their kit and we get one stun/blind that can be dispelled.

Nah, don’t buy it. It’s about every class adapting to the times and we are still so behind.

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As I said, a quirk.
As Ret I can’t maintain a group in a fight where we eat group damage, I can save someone in a pinch but that’s not sustainable.

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From a PvE perspective, I want the damage gap between our AoE and ST builds to be smaller.

Maybe we can achieve this by hard-capping the number of mobs affected by Final Reckoning’s spender bonus (but not the number of targets hit) and increasing its damage to 40 or 50 per cent. That way FR is still competitive in AoE and yields better ST results.

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100% agree, fix ret scaling, fix the spec tree make it more like the new BM hunter tree that actually is viable in all scenarios. Make us scale of mastery, give us viability outside wings… Give us a flat %buff to itleast put us back in the middle of the back. Stricly talking PVE here though dont know much about pvp.

Bring back kings… that will help us get into more keys specially at the higher level. or a revamped version of it. give us more AOE and ST abilities so we have more options like the new DH or rogue specs. FIX HOW WE SCALE IN GENERAL!!!

Thats all I can think of for now, had my rant

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I want my burst back, I want my high apm Crusade playstyle back. Vanguard of Justice is just not my thing but I feel obligated to play the standard build in most situations. I’m getting better with it this tier but since the interaction between Execution Sentence and Seal of Order was “fixed” the gap between the builds has widened.

I am mostly dissatisfied with the rework apart from a couple of talents and our massive increase to durability which I am very grateful for.

I was really hoping for flexible builds but both capstones Divine Arbiter and Searing Light fail to deliver. We aren’t even incentivized to play around DA and Searing Light is entirely passive.

I was hoping that there would be vibrant builds that leaned into radiant dots, sustain builds, burst builds, etc. Instead you have this harsh partition between AoE and ST, and I think that’s a huge mistake. It should be in the player’s hands to make AoE and ST builds from a pool of talent synergies. There aren’t really options here, and frankly there’s quite a few dead nodes, way too many Divine Storm talents, the Judgment talents are weak, I could go into great detail but I don’t wish to take up too much space.

Ret shouldn’t be in the state it is in so near to a rework. If ret had been left entirely as it was in terms of damage profile, clunk included, I’d have been happy with just a defensive rework. This wasn’t worth the tradeoff, and I truly begin to think the rework was poorly managed or rushed. Thank you.

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I agree with what u said.

But dont u find it strange how even tho ret has clear single target and aoe pathing, they still wont buff our st. Like we have clear talents only for st so why are they not buffing those to bring up our dmg and it wont interfere with our aoe to make it broken.

Also lack of cleave is very strange but i could let that go if st and aoe were extremely good.

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So far in this thread I’ve seen valid cries for help. I just find it ironic that some people aren’t happy with the difference between our AoE and ST dps and now people are jumping on the we don’t have good enough healing bandwagon.

It’s very clear that Blizzard wants us to make choices as Ret Paladins. We can’t just miraculously have it all wrapped up in a nice neat package because a handful of players want one build that can tank, top the dps meters and keep the entire raid healed while wearing full plate.

Lol.

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Its actually depressing, I come back to see if theres any fixes each day and all i see is hotfixes for season of disovery… just lol…

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Alright, Blizzard. You’re not fooling anybody. We know you’re sitting on The Sword of a Thousand Truths.
Please just make it a Ret Paladin only weapon and give it to us already.

Thanks.

1 Like