It’s sounds pretty bad if you don’t want to be forced to run recycled dungeons with a timer and a bunch of toxic un-fun affixes.
TWW is just past the half way point of mythic level gear being possible to obtain via the great vault. Hell, the great vault didn’t even exist until SL, which is also just past the half way point. “Nearly always” is a stretch…
Only for general item level early in a season. Most seasons feature more must-have trinkets and special effect items from raid than anywhere else. Tier still can only drop from raid, giving raiders a distinct advantage on how quickly they can get tier. Seasons that have a legendary weapon require raiding to have any chance at obtaining.
Yes, M+ gearing has its advantages, and many times that does create situations in which it might replace the need for certain raid gear. But for most specs and most seasons, the quality of raid gear is the best in the game, up to the point of having lower item level pieces being BIS for folks, even those who can get myth track items out of the vault from M+. Invalidating is just simply not an accurate statement to describe the impact M+ gear has on raid gear except in specific contexts for specific pieces for specific specs in specific seasons.
That’s not how defending your position works. You should be able to find such a quote from your own history of it truly is that prevalent. And I guess we’ll ignore the other part I quoted of yours that was even more ridiculous, eh?
Honestly I still don’t know why Blizzard thought removing the bottom 10 key levels was a good thing for M+ overall. We probably didn’t need that many keys between the previous starting point and what we have now, but having zero keys is a pretty stark contrast. It’s a much smoother transition when a player can get into M+ earlier for learning and getting entry-level gear than when they have to run alternative game modes for the gear before reaching M+ with higher incoming damage and higher outgoing performance requirements. By all means I would have been in favor of Blizzard removing half the key levels so there weren’t so many keys that felt similar at the low end, it is just odd they chose to remove the bottom rungs entirely while leaving the rest of the ladder alone.
If that’s how you feel about M+, then it’s likely just not the game mode for you. Very few people are actually “forced” to run M+; and if you are in such a position, there is an aspect of needing to understand that the pressure to run it is coming from the fact that you are intentionally keeping companies with others who do run it. The players who enjoy M+ especially those that play M+ exclusively have no reason to care whether you play M+ or not; but your entire position is that they should lose how they play the game because of your choices to play at a level where the people around you expect you to run the mode.
You seem to be under the mistaken belief that I care about justifying myself to you or “defending” my position. If you want examples you just need to look in any thread that discusses M+. If you can’t be bothered, that’s on you. You’re the one asserting that M+ players only want to be left alone and not influence how others play.
Except that they hysterically defend the easy gearing. They argue “we only do M+ for the challenge” yet as soon as rewards are touched (or something like delves are introduce that compete) they lose their mind.
M+ players want to dictate how others play the game by aggressively defending any changes to try and balance the ridiculous ease of gearing through M+.
I mean if you have no interest in trying to convince people of your point, I don’t know what value exists from participating in a forum. To each their own, I suppose.
No, I offered skepticism to YOUR claim that M+ players all want to change how the game is played for everyone else, in the absence of you offering any kind of evidence. You declined to do so. This is where defending your position comes into play; it’s not on me to disprove the baseless claims you have made.
And we can debate the instances where this has happened, that’s fine. But you are assigning the motivation of people in order to make this claim.
Delve loot being as lucrative as it is in the early stage of gearing has an impact on the other PVE gearing systems. One such explanation is that an M+ player doesn’t think anyone else should have access to that gear; but it’s not the only explanation. Yet you have based your position around solely this explanation, something not only you didn’t prove, you CAN’T prove since you cannot know what someone else’s motivation for doing something is.
Again, you are assigning a motivation to all M+ players here while also creating a strawman. Another possibility is that an M+ player does not want to see their experience become worse because players who care about other game modes are using M+ as a gearing platform; they frankly don’t care about how others play the game, they are just defending their own mode from the changes due to how others play the game.
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M+ loot has traditionally been far more lucrative than normal and heroic raiding. It’s easier and it rewards failure. It’s only 5 people and requires far less organisation. It’s infinitely spammable.
But you only have to hint at the possibility of altering the loot so it matches the difficulty and M+ players go bananas - telling everyone else if they don’t like it they should just run M+ to get the loot.
Because in literally every single M+ thread you see the same arguments.
Here, have a read through this thread that’s remained active for 6 years: Bring back 5mans
Yes, when we deal with quantity of pretty good loot that drops. But when we look at quality of loot, this becomes a lot murkier. Tier doesn’t drop from M+. Legendary items don’t drop from M+. Most specs have more BIS trinkets out of raid than M+.
But even for that quantity, how many M+ players have you seen complain about suggestions of increasing raid loot? A primary reason why a lot of players likely push back on suggestions of changing M+ loot is because it only serves other game modes. M+ is expected to take a back seat to raiding in loot when raiders argue M+ loot should be nerfed, rather than offering up a suggestion of simply improving raid loot. At a minimum the situation is FAR more complicated than just M+ players unreasonably wanting to hold onto the gearing advantages they do have.
I have said for years now that M+ rewards should move up to higher key levels, at least at the top end. Not every M+ player is just content that they have a much easier time getting access to some of the best gear in the game.
And the same types of people making arguments out of other people’s motivations. Like I said, there are many reasons why someone might dislike a suggested change; when you base your argument solely on the most convenient one of your argument, it’s not a good faith discussion.
buffing raid loot accomplishes the same thing though. Say raid loot is now 10x, you think m+ participation won’t plummet? (Have to 10x crests too.)
Or if raid loot became more powerful.
If it plummets, so be it. I have no interest in artificially propping up participation from players who don’t want to be there. The players who truly like M+ aren’t likely to bail because of raid changes; certainly amongst the players who don’t raid their experience wouldn’t change one bit.
Rewards certainly influence participation, but the notion that players will always put the reward ahead of their experience is a vast oversimplification at best and a complete fallacy at worst. Raiders who farm M+ when they would rather not aren’t doing so because they just care about their number going up; they’re doing so because M+ gear is the means to the end they want to reach.
This is especially true when considering the organizational requirement differences between the different modes. If I’m unwilling or unable to schedule my life around consistent raid nights, it doesn’t really matter if raid loot gets a major buff, I’m still not going to participate. If they nerf M+ loot, I might feel my effort is no longer properly rewarded; if I’m not going to raid anyway, what they can get isn’t likely to factor in to my decision to run M+.
If they give raiders higher ilvl loot, you’ll feel the same thing.
(Which, admittedly, does impact m+ title chasers.)
You don’t need to nerf m+, to nerf m+ loot.
It’s the same thing with delves.
If they’re not going to remove the timer on mythic keys then they should add a timer to raids, on top of an attempt count.
Say 20-30 wipes and an 1:30 hour timer but each boss slain adds some time. If time runs out only the next boss is accessible (but never the last boss) until next reset. Though this should only be for heroic and mythic difficulty.
What else is the point if one can just wait over and over again for cooldowns to reset?
Raids have a timer, it’s just not visible.
Bosses had attempt counts before, all this accomplished is better guilds using alts to gain experience, so they stopped that idea.
We have to go back to wrath for all these experiments.
Checks out. Not surprised.
By the way, how much did those +10 carries cost you?
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You don’t speak for all players. Not everyone cares about what is going on across the aisle. I don’t care if raid gear gets comparatively better than M+ gear, I’m not going to start changing the entire structure of how I play the game to focus more on a mode I like less because the rewards suddenly become better. The keys I’m able to complete don’t become lower if raid gear becomes better.
Yes, there are players who will. But neither of us can possibly know what percentage of players will fall into which camp.
buffing raid loot is the same as nerfing m+ rewards. More so if it comes to ilvl.
Not for the players that are only participating in one of the modes. You keep wanting to box all players into the camp where they will always flock to where the best rewards are. Perhaps that is how you and people you play with experience the game. But that’s not the way everyone experiences the game.
An M+ player’s power level in keys doesn’t become lower if raid gear is buffed. For the player who only cares about M+, how powerful they could be in other modes isn’t particularly relevant.
You said it yourself here:
If they elevated LFR to higher loot than m+10 (and every level of raid even beyond that.) That’s the same thing as nerfing m+ loot.
Unless if you’re attached to a descriptor called “mythic plus” and nothing else.
You’re significantly twisting my words here. When I referred to nerfing M+ loot, I meant a direct nerf to M+ loot, not the “from a certain point of view” stance you are trying to push treating all gear as a zero sum game.
If I can time a +10 with a couple minutes to spare with my gear today, I will be the same position even if Blizzard buffs raid loot by 25%; nothing changed about my M+ experience. Whereas if Blizzard nerfs the M+ loot I have by 25%, I may no longer be able to time that +10; my M+ experience has been made worse.
If I have come to the conclusion I am not going to raid, it doesn’t matter what Blizzard does to raid loot, it will not impact whatever I am choosing to spend my time on in game. But if Blizzard worsens M+ loot, it may feel like it’s no longer worth it to play M+; I’m still not going to go over to raid, I’ll just stop playing M+. Buffing raid loot won’t alter how I consume WoW but nerfing M+ loot might, even though both approaches have the functional effect of making M+ loot worse relative to raid loot.
If Blizzard renamed raid difficulties again, introduced a new shiny reward at say +15 at a lower drop rate.
It accomplishes the same thing. Nerfing m+ loot and decreasing the drop rate in the process. (But farming m+ for loot is hardly the highlight of anyone’s day.)
If they don’t change the existing reward levels, then no, it’s not a nerf to M+.
Again, you keep wanting to act like every player is agnostic to the mode they will play and just nomadically migrate to wherever the greatest shinies are. But that’s just not how the entire player base plays the game. Many players only care for one mode and the changes (including reward changes) to other modes are of truly no concern to them.
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People will be complaining to no end if Blizzard renamed difficulties, and m+ loot is lower comparatively.
If Blizzard didn’t come out with post of removing the lower ten levels, what would your reaction be to season 4/tww season 1 tuning?
Numbers aren’t static, neither is gear.
If they came out with a post saying they lowered mythic track to drop at +10 (down from 20) and did all that, what would your reaction be?
(And yes, TWW current tuning will persist.)
It’s true, and many people have been wanting m+ rewards at lower m+.