Please separate twinks from leveling players.

PVP Battlegrounds
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10/22/2018 02:44 PMPosted by Willybrown
10/22/2018 12:52 PMPosted by Ellowa
Spend time gearing up if you want to compete


Exactly.
This is how an MMO works.


Correct, at the end game gear should matter, not at the lower level brackets. The lower level brackets are meant to be a transition, not a stopping point, nor were they ever intended to be as such. Blizzard added experience off for the niche (read small) group of people who enjoy the content that they are currently leveling in and wanted to stay there. It was NOT intended to be used to stay in a battlegrounds bracket and farm those with less gear.

10/22/2018 02:46 PMPosted by Myninja
10/22/2018 02:30 PMPosted by Ellowa
I mean, you're pretty much agreeing with the things i'm saying.

Um, no?

Look, you sound like you want a FPS game.
An FPS game an a fantasy MMORPG are two different animals, so i'm curious how you came to this assumption?

10/22/2018 02:46 PMPosted by Myninja
This is a MMORPG. Gear matters here. Only a brief period of time did gear not matter, and it was a disaster.


Define disaster? You mean when they put everyone on an even playing field by turning it to item levels and not gear levels? No, not really, if you knew how to twink then it was a complete non-issue.
10/22/2018 02:46 PMPosted by Myninja
It's why it was scrapped after less than 2 years. I'd actually argue that gear still mattered during these times. For crying out loud, white rings were BiS until around level 60, because their ilvl was higher than any green, blue, or purple of those levels.


Exactly, so in fact it was less of a hassle for twinks to get BiS then then it is now. What made it HARDER on twinks was that procs, trinkets, enchants, consumables and such did not define the player so much as item levels. In fact, the majority of those items did not work, or had no bearing on the game at all so twinks had a harder time... or they just rolled survival hunters which were absolute terrors on the battlefield because they were hands down the most broken class... close to disc priests.

10/22/2018 02:46 PMPosted by Myninja
What everyone should be arguing for, imo, is less gear disparity. And to fix the over-tuned items (such as Rammstein). Blizzard can accomplish that with the current system they have now. That way everyone can get queues. Just unbunch your panties and wait because Blizzard historically has never been in a hurry to fix low level brackets.
If you think Rammstein is the problem here, then you're not paying much attention. The brackets themselves are rife with tons of back peddling bads who just happened to have enough money to buy (or farm) their BiS and that makes a huge difference. You're pushing for less gear disparity and again you're not facing the primary issue. You keep falling back on the argument that if you want to compete in low level brackets you should spend days gearing up to compete in a battleground that you will level out of(or COULD level out of) in less then a few hours.

The average player does not, nor should they be required to, have that time to sink into a disposable bracket. It's not fair to the player base nor should you think it is. Imagine a brand new player to the game coming along to give this game a try and giving pvp a shot for the first time. He queue's at level 19, a fair handle on his character, and is completely train wrecked by a level 19 twink who spams two buttons. This happens over and over again and there's a strong possibility he will be graveyard camped in that, or another, game. How is that fair? How is that fun? In truth, if that were me I would be discouraged from playing in the low level brackets and possibly pvp as a whole until I was maxed level because nobody likes to feel useless.

Twinking isn't a good example of the current pvp game, and it shouldn't be. When the Twink brackets were in effect, leveling in the battleground was more complex, fun, and actually was appealing to low level (undergeared) players because they had a shot to succeed. Twinking and griefing players in low level brackets was not (or God I hope not) what Blizzard intended, nor would I expect it of them.
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10/22/2018 02:52 PMPosted by Greyhide
10/22/2018 02:44 PMPosted by Willybrown
...

Exactly.
This is how an MMO works.


There is a guy in Asia where there are no laws about assault on minors, he beat up all 150 kids during a school recess. He's now 150-0 on his fighting record. It's the kids fault for not beefing themselves up to take him on.

This is how fighting works.


Something that players respect within MMO's is the dedication put into their fellow characters. This respect can be found within all walks of WOW players, Transmog collectors, Pet collectors, Arena masters, Ahead of the curve Mythic raiders, Loremasters, BG heroes, Mount collectors, Dungeon crawlers and the list can go on.

This respect for dedication is universal.
When I look at your character/account, I wonder what you have been doing since Vanilla that has a hint of this dedication that we all respect.
Would you like to enlighten us?
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10/22/2018 03:35 PMPosted by Willybrown
10/22/2018 02:52 PMPosted by Greyhide
...

There is a guy in Asia where there are no laws about assault on minors, he beat up all 150 kids during a school recess. He's now 150-0 on his fighting record. It's the kids fault for not beefing themselves up to take him on.

This is how fighting works.


Something that players respect within MMO's is the dedication put into their fellow characters. This respect can be found within all walks of WOW players, Transmog collectors, Pet collectors, Arena masters, Ahead of the curve Mythic raiders, Loremasters, BG heroes, Mount collectors, Dungeon crawlers and the list can go on.

This respect for dedication is universal.
When I look at your character/account, I wonder what you have been doing since Vanilla that has a hint of this dedication that we all respect.
Would you like to enlighten us?


You hide behind a lvl 1 with achs off.

Why not show off your character?, isn't that what you are constantly saying.
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10/22/2018 03:35 PMPosted by Willybrown
10/22/2018 02:52 PMPosted by Greyhide
...

There is a guy in Asia where there are no laws about assault on minors, he beat up all 150 kids during a school recess. He's now 150-0 on his fighting record. It's the kids fault for not beefing themselves up to take him on.

This is how fighting works.


Something that players respect within MMO's is the dedication put into their fellow characters. This respect can be found within all walks of WOW players, Transmog collectors, Pet collectors, Arena masters, Ahead of the curve Mythic raiders, Loremasters, BG heroes, Mount collectors, Dungeon crawlers and the list can go on.

This respect for dedication is universal.
When I look at your character/account, I wonder what you have been doing since Vanilla that has a hint of this dedication that we all respect.
Would you like to enlighten us?


I would say the same for you, but I can't pull up a level 1 character with no history, so....also, the forums has a bad habit of not showing achievements on an account if you're not the character that did them. So I mean...

Oh and before you blow a whistle at me too, here's one of my 110's. I can't be bothered to do BoA because it's not fun to me, so here's a link to one of my paladins to show you "What some of us have been doing since Vanilla."

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/wyrmrest-accord/lerieth
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10/22/2018 03:43 PMPosted by Neltherial
Why not show off your character?


When you see the name Willybrown, you see the truth.

No need for anything other than the facts here pal.
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10/22/2018 03:50 PMPosted by Willybrown
10/22/2018 03:43 PMPosted by Neltherial
Why not show off your character?


When you see the name Willybrown, you see the truth.

No need for anything other than the facts here pal.


Then if it's only about facts why did you point out someone else's achs while hiding yours?
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An FPS game an a fantasy MMORPG are two different animals, so i'm curious how you came to this assumption?

It's your actions. You sound like you want ready made characters where you can just hop in and start killing stuff. This isn't that kind of game and never has been (even with templates).

Define disaster? You mean when they put everyone on an even playing field by turning it to item levels and not gear levels? No, not really, if you knew how to twink then it was a complete non-issue.

lol "if you knew how to twink", chick you're talking to the only 10/10 Titanforge rogue out of Legion in the 39 bracket. Maybe if you twinked in Legion you'd know what that meant.

It was a disaster because there was no freedom to customize your character. It was Blizzards way and Blizzards way only. Want to get more haste so that your dots get another tick? Nope, sorry, out of luck.

Exactly, so in fact it was less of a hassle for twinks to get BiS then then it is now. What made it HARDER on twinks was that procs, trinkets, enchants, consumables and such did not define the player so much as item levels. In fact, the majority of those items did not work, or had no bearing on the game at all so twinks had a harder time... or they just rolled survival hunters which were absolute terrors on the battlefield because they were hands down the most broken class... close to disc priests.

You must not have been around for Legion. Twinks were still getting complaints, even "being on equal ground".

If you think Rammstein is the problem here, then you're not paying much attention.

You have a hard time at comprehension skills. I didn't say Rammstein is the problem. It's only part of the problem.

The brackets themselves are rife with tons of back peddling bads who just happened to have enough money to buy (or farm) their BiS and that makes a huge difference.

lol Get Wrecked

In truth, if that were me I would be discouraged from playing in the low level brackets and possibly pvp as a whole until I was maxed level because nobody likes to feel useless.

Thats the difference with players like you. You're the type of person that wants the participation trophy. Don't deny it. Everyone gets icecream after the game right?

When the Twink brackets were in effect, leveling in the battleground was more complex, fun, and actually was appealing to low level (undergeared) players because they had a shot to succeed.

Are we even playing the same game? Cause the WoW I've played, twinks have never stopped getting complaints. People were still getting rolled even when xp off players were separated.
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10/22/2018 03:46 PMPosted by Ellowa
"What some of us have been doing since Vanilla."


I respect the dedication applied to your 59. We may not 100% agree with your posts but they are valid and well thought out.

The Greyhide poster has been spamming these threads with pointless banter lacking any educational contribution.
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10/22/2018 03:58 PMPosted by Myninja

It's your actions. You sound like you want ready made characters where you can just hop in and start killing stuff. This isn't that kind of game and never has been (even with templates).


I don't think I ever said I wanted pre-made characters for battlegrounds... I mean feel free to quote me saying that, i'll wait. What I do think I said was I wanted a fair and even playing field for all players involved in a battleground. Fair and even, meaning, anyone can join and have a chance to play with like leveled and geared players on their level. I never said pre-mades, if you can't fill a belt slot because you're lazy that's your own business, but at least you had a chance through leveling to do so.

10/22/2018 03:58 PMPosted by Myninja
lol "if you knew how to twink", chick you're talking to the only 10/10 Titanforge rogue out of Legion in the 39 bracket. Maybe if you twinked in Legion you'd know what that meant.


I've been twinking since Vanilla when I played a night elf hunter in the 20-29 bracket. And as for your, titanforged rogue? I could have accomplished the same thing with an afk macro running and standing at sentinel hill during the legion invasion. I mean, yes it's BiS, but it's not like you're proving me wrong to point out gear disparity of a character wearing Fel armor vs anyone who didn't do the Pre-launch.

10/22/2018 03:58 PMPosted by Myninja
It was a disaster because there was no freedom to customize your character. It was Blizzards way and Blizzards way only. Want to get more haste so that your dots get another tick? Nope, sorry, out of luck.


This, right here, is the most ignorant thing i've ever seen you post thus far. You want to talk about "Pre-made" characters? Each class had a template of BiS top item level gear, and if you got it you were good, and if you didn't you were screwed. Legion twinking was more pronounced in the fact that there was absolutely no way leveling characters could match you unless the went and bought the toys sold off NPC's and/or dropped a crap ton of cash in order get BiS engineering items.

10/22/2018 03:58 PMPosted by Myninja

You must not have been around for Legion. Twinks were still getting complaints, even "being on equal ground".


The entire reason twinks are made is to not be on even ground, Legion never had an even ground because when you're Item level 82 or higher vs an item level 22 player, the stat push is impressive. It's not a challenge at all.

10/22/2018 03:58 PMPosted by Myninja
You have a hard time at comprehension skills. I didn't say Rammstein is the problem. It's only part of the problem.


And if you continue reading I elaborated.

10/22/2018 03:58 PMPosted by Myninja

Thats the difference with players like you. You're the type of person that wants the participation trophy. Don't deny it. Everyone gets icecream after the game right?


You do realize, i'm a twink too right? I mean you did check the profile, right? RIGHT? I'm part of the problem too, and i'm not sitting in a chair with the room on fire saying "This is fine."

10/22/2018 03:58 PMPosted by Myninja

Are we even playing the same game? Cause the WoW I've played, twinks have never stopped getting complaints. People were still getting rolled even when xp off players were separated.


Don't be naive. It was never, ever as bad then as it was now. If you're arguing that point then you're even more obtuse then you're leading on. Yes, there were ways to twink in the game during the day that would allow you to play in brackets that were normally off limits. At level 60 you could play on a pure vanilla account and never buy the expansion so you could never get experience and just enjoy playing in the battlegrounds like Alterac Valley which had a level 60 bracket and just so for things like the level 70 bracket. That in truth was where most of my twinking was done after the made xp off because I found I loved Alterac Valley. So i'm fairly sure I have that 'legacy' PvP experience you're touting on about, maybe just a little bit more. I know twinks have always been an issue, always had an advantage, and Blizzard actively fought against that. They thought they fixed it during Legion and removed the limitation, now it's back and in my mind worse and needs to be implemented again.
110
10/22/2018 04:07 PMPosted by Willybrown
10/22/2018 03:46 PMPosted by Ellowa
"What some of us have been doing since Vanilla."


I respect the dedication applied to your 59. We may not 100% agree with your posts but they are valid and well thought out.

The Greyhide poster has been spamming these threads with pointless banter lacking any educational contribution.


Fair enough.
111
10/22/2018 03:43 PMPosted by Neltherial
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Something that players respect within MMO's is the dedication put into their fellow characters. This respect can be found within all walks of WOW players, Transmog collectors, Pet collectors, Arena masters, Ahead of the curve Mythic raiders, Loremasters, BG heroes, Mount collectors, Dungeon crawlers and the list can go on.

This respect for dedication is universal.
When I look at your character/account, I wonder what you have been doing since Vanilla that has a hint of this dedication that we all respect.
Would you like to enlighten us?


You hide behind a lvl 1 with achs off.

Why not show off your character?, isn't that what you are constantly saying.


I was thinking the same thing. He deflected my point with ad hominem.

10/22/2018 04:07 PMPosted by Willybrown
The Greyhide poster has been spamming these threads with pointless banter lacking any educational contribution.


Irony much?
112
I don't think I ever said I wanted pre-made characters for battlegrounds... I mean feel free to quote me saying that, i'll wait. What I do think I said was I wanted a fair and even playing field for all players involved in a battleground. Fair and even, meaning, anyone can join and have a chance to play with like leveled and geared players on their level. I never said pre-mades, if you can't fill a belt slot because you're lazy that's your own business, but at least you had a chance through leveling to do so.

We use to argue, before the segregation, that Blizzard do a match making system, or use MMR to group players, so that lower rated players are grouped with other lower rated players and higher rated is grouped with higher rated players. Here we are a decade later and still nothing like that. I could go for something like that.

You do realize, i'm a twink too right? I mean you did check the profile, right? RIGHT? I'm part of the problem too, and i'm not sitting in a chair with the room on fire saying "This is fine."

Your comment was about getting discouraged because you were stomped (hypothetically as a new player). Those type of people are the same kind that think everyone should win. I would argue that not everyone is like you. Not everyone will get discouraged. In fact, I would argue that there are some folks that want to become stronger. That they'll start researching what makes their characters stronger and make changes.

Don't be naive. It was never, ever as bad then as it was now. If you're arguing that point then you're even more obtuse then you're leading on.

Are you joking me? The complaints never stopped. Even when we were separated. That's what I need you to understand. People want to point at twinks and say we're the problem, even when we weren't in the same queues. To minimize those complaints as say "oh its worse now" shows which side of the fence you truly are on.

But you're right. It totally wasn't worse then, with level 19s at 4k HP and levelers having 500 HP. !@#$, we had a druid at 39 that could reach 13k HP, with levelers around 2k - 2.5k. Level 60 ret paladins with socket gear literally going 100+ KBs. Totally not worse, I get it.

Yes, there were ways to twink in the game during the day that would allow you to play in brackets that were normally off limits. At level 60 you could play on a pure vanilla account and never buy the expansion so you could never get experience and just enjoy playing in the battlegrounds like Alterac Valley

And then there is this. This is the other nail in separated queues coffin. Capped accounts drove many players to them and out of their respective bracket queues.

Look, we can go on and on about this stuff all day long. It's fun to me. I will say this though, at the end of the day, whatever the solution is, I hope that everyone gets games. Forcing one group or another into endless queues where there are no pops is not what anyone wants. Would you agree or disagree?
113
They don't have enough people playing the lower level bgs. You would end up outleveling a bracket before your que poped.

It's pretty much that simple. The game just doesn't have the playerbase to support those being separated. Most alts are in the higher levels. Especially considering boosts are a thing.
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I would agree or better yet a hard core mode with only whites that are usable. No enchants no craft-ables. This would make questing actual worth it. I would bet all sorts of gaming camps would be setting up teams, glorious. Also if you have teams they get special "white" gear or mounts for winning.
But Blizzard wants us to be gear/stat driven, that is were the money is. Understandable.
115
10/22/2018 02:52 PMPosted by Greyhide
10/22/2018 02:44 PMPosted by Willybrown
...

Exactly.
This is how an MMO works.


There is a guy in Asia where there are no laws about assault on minors, he beat up all 150 kids during a school recess. He's now 150-0 on his fighting record. It's the kids fault for not beefing themselves up to take him on.

This is how fighting works.


they should get better gear. a gun is better gear....now the kids win.
116
Twinks need their own BG's, period.
Let them mongo smash each other all they want and leave the rest of us alone.
117

Well, if we check twink communities, they are so many! It’s time to separate them!! BUT?

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