Please Don't Give Turalyon The Villain Bat

Lore Story Forum
1147

The Mag’har orcs are experiencing genocide.

Not only are they being targeted for mass extermination/conversion, the orcs that we have seen that converted to the Lightbound crusade have indeed been stripped of all things Magh’ar. They don’t speak Orcish to anyone. They don’t use Worgs, they ride into battle in Lightbound warframes like the Draenei. They don’t follow the ancestors or spirits, they follow the Naaru/Light like the Draenei. They don’t fight using Mag’har styles, they wear Draenei weapons/armor and use the same units/tactics as the Draenei. They shout things at Mag’har Orcs like, " We come to save you from your savagery!"

Genocide often does indeed include the “join” option, as it’s common for there to be collaborating members originating from the ethnic/national/racial/religious group being targeted for destruction. And even then, we’re told that not all orcs who joined did so willingly. Some had the Light forced upon them.

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1148

We have to play as Horde characters to do the Mag’har recruitment scenario, but the Horde PCs can understand the Lightbound Draenei, so its more likely the Draenei learned Orcish and are speaking it to our Horde PCs, ergo the language isn’t lost.

While I’ll concede the lack of worgs, I didn’t see any Orcs riding in warframes.

If you think they don’t wear the Mag’har fashions you need to take a closer look at the character models; it’s Mag’har fashion with some light crystals slapped on.

1149

Perceptions relate to the five senses sight, sound, smell, taste, and touch. They’re not memories in and of themselves, clouding those senses doesn’t alter memories.

You’re in denial that Turalyon stood up to Xe’ra, Turalyon not knowing the punishment Xe’ra planned doesn’t change the fact that Turalyon challenged her and she hesitated as the story outright says despite your denials. At least you aren’t an obsessively blind Illidan fanboy/fangirl; the Illidan/Xe’ra cinematic was such edgelord cringe, I thought the writer was one step away from giving Illidan a katana and a fedora/naming Xe’ra after their least favorite schoolteacher, police officer or clergyman from high school.

I don’t dismiss what Velen said anymore than you assume the worst from his words. I said they were manipulating the audience with Velen’s quote, not tricking people with Xe’ra. I have evidence, you just ignore it, just like Blizzard ignored the Iron Horde in their mad rush to villain bat Yrel and the AU Draenei.

I never said Xe’ra did nothing wrong, if you’re saying that’s my argument, you’re attacking a strawman. Let’s say what the Lightbound did to the Mag’har counts as genocide, funny how the innocent Mag’har fell in lockstep behind the former leader of the Iron Horde, AU Grommash Hellscream. AU Grom wasn’t punished for his war crimes with the Iron Horde since he wasn’t exiled, imprisoned, blacklisted from leadership or executed for HIS attempted genocide of the Draenei. You reap what you sow.

In summary I condemn villain-batting the Light, Turalyon being a bad guy is a bad idea and I think Yrel and the AU Draenei being fanatical antagonists is bad writing, they’re not a good choice for villain status AND it’s hackneyed (we already had a fanaticism story arc with the Scarlet Crusade, this Yrel stuff is just yet more pandering to edgelords).

1150

Whenever dealing with NPCs–even when the player character is Horde–the game doesn’t default to Orcish, it defaults to Common.

We don’t see the faces of any actual warframe pilotes. I’m trying to be generous in assuming warframes aren’t piloted exclusively by draenei, as that would orcs serve purely as infantry in the Lightbound’s forces. But hey, we can do that too. Eeither way, there’s absolutely no Mag’har animal husbanry to be found.

You can see the pictures of the units. Some Mag’har orcs have tattoos/warpaint they had before becoming Lightforged, but all of their armor, weapons, ranks and tactics are identical to those used by the draenei.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Lightbound

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1151

Perception isn’t just limited to the five physical senses. It includes emotions, interpretations, beliefs, and other mental elements etc. People can have memories of things they haven’t actually experienced in the physical sense. Multiple people can see, hear, smell, taste an touch, the same thing and yet still perceive or remember it in incredibly different ways.

This very discussion is evidence of that fact.

For instance, seeing someone begging for mercy in the face of unknown punishment and then passively accepting said punishment would not be remembered by many as an instance of defiance.

Velen’s words speak for themselves. You claimed Xe’ra didn’t mislead anyone. We have a undeniable example of her misleading people. The Devs even come out and say that Xe’ra’s further exploring the idea that the Naaru and Light are not all good. Having this being supported by in game events and dialogue is not “manipulating the audience”.

I’m not strawmaning you. You’ve made several threads over the past few months with titles like “Yrel did nothing wrong”, “Would a fanatical Yrel be redeemable?” “Please don’t give Turalyon the villain bat,”,“How is Illidan strong enough to kill Xe’ra?” Please don’t hit Velen with the edgy bat next expansion", “The Edgiest/Edgelord moments in WoW,” etc.

It’s obvious you’re preemptively heading off the idea of any Light characters taking on anything approaching a villainous role in the narrative beyond what little Blizzard has already done. And trying to downplay any villainous role they’ve taken on already. Additionally, painting any victims of said villainy as deserving of it by virtue of simply being terrible people in a way that the Light never is… even if they do a lot of the same stuff villainous stuff.

If you’re not opposed to the idea of Light based characters occasionally being villainous and simply want it to be written well, I suggest you focus your critiques and suggestions to how to do it well. And give examples of situations where you think villainous Light characters have been done well.

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1152

The defaulting to common then sounds like a game mechanic, which debunks the idea that the Lightbound are eradicating the Orcish language. By that logic, it could be said the Draenei language was also being wiped out and replaced with common.

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt about the warframes.

Looking at the Mag’har Lightbound NPCs in the link you shared, there’s a variety of attire; some dress like the Draenei, others dress in Mag’har fashion with a few Light crystals slapped on.

1153

After checking it, you’re right that the psychological definition of perception includes memory. The clerics ability to render themselves invisible by manipulating perceptions, however, doesn’t sound like it touches memory.

You keep thinking I said Blizzard was trying to manipulate people with Xe’ra. Wrong. Pay attention; I SAID BLIZZARD WAS MANIPULATING PEOPLE WITH VELEN’S QUOTE, NOT XE’RA HERSELF. Is keeping a secret that’s on a need-to-know basis misleading someone? Depends, but not always.

Also;

  • My “How is Illidan strong enough to kill Xe’ra?” thread wasn’t about heroes and villains, but questioning characters power levels.
  • My “The Edgiest/Edgelord moments in WoW" thread was more Sylvanas-focused and serves as a metaphorical petri dish to assess WoW’s edgiest moments.
  • My “Would a fanatical Yrel be redeemable?” thread was predicated on Yrel becoming a villian. No villainous Yrel, and the thread becomes an trivial, irrelevant footnote.

I’m not pre-emptively heading off any Light characters taking a villainous role. My goal is to point out to people the problems with having Yrel and the Lightbound return as antagonists along with only fleshing out the Light when its in a villainous role. If I have a goal, it’s to get Blizzard to not do the edgelord “one-dimensional bad guy” route with the Light and make Yrel and her Lightbound morally grey instead of one-dimensional fanatics. I’m not the only person who disapproves of villain-batting Yrel and her group. By the way, what do you mean by “by virtue of simply being terrible people in a way that the Light never is… even if (the Light followers) do a lot of the same stuff villainous stuff.”

“Order turning out to be as bad as chaos” is becoming cliche, if they really wanted to subvert expectations, having Yrel and co turn out to be justified in their actions would be a surprise… plus we don’t need another “dogmatism” story arc, we already had that with the Scarlet Crusade - villainous Light characters done well.

P.S the crux of the Mag’har deserving it was more to point out they aren’t innocent victims since the writers seem to be making the stupid decision of sweeping the Iron Horde - and any lasting harm it did to the Draenei - under the rug for this fanaticism story.

1154

I’ve already linked the page that has pictures of all the units. Your statement that the Lightbound orcs are wearing Mag’har clothing and wielding Mag’har weapons and not just wearing the same stuff as the Draenei is not true.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Lightbound

Even taking into account that this is simply a game covention (that conveniently does reinforce the primacy of Humans in the Warcraft universe as it’s their native laguage), that still leaves zero instances of the Lightbound showing any interest in preserving Mag’har culture as they proceed to slaughter convert them en masse.

Your claims that the Lightbound are preserving various aspects of Mag’har culture is not just baseless, it’s actually contradicted in several instances.

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1155

Blizzard isn’t manipulating people with Velen’s quote. Velen’s quote is telling us that Xe’ra misleads people. It exists because Xe’ra actually does mislead people, yet there’s people like you who claim that she doesn’t do that. And even after the writers make that transparently clear what’s going on, you’re still trying to justify Xe’ra keeping secrets that you originally claimed she didn’t even keep.

Your thread questioning Illidan’s power level are focused on his power as it relates to opposition to Xe’ra. Your edgiest moments thread doesn’t just focus on Sylvanas but includes criticism of Illidan–not for any number of other terrible things he’s done while being a villain–but solely in the instance in which he opposes Xe’ra.

You simultaneously engage in apologetics for Xe’ra, Yrel’s villainous actions and make pleas for Blizzard not to villain bat other characters like Tuarlyon and Velen before they’ve actually been villain batted. That is literally “pre-emptively heading off any Light characters taking a villainous role” in future content.

And you continue making the argument that Xe’ra and forces of the Light aren’t engaging in genocide/lies/manipulation and even if they are, it’s not a bad thing, and even it is, they shouldn’t be considered wrong because the other parties against whom they act actually deserve those bad things.

The Iron Horde was not swept under the rug. We had a whole expansion about fighting and defeating them. And it wasn’t the fiest time Blizzard’s villain batted Mag’har characters either. 30 years hence, and the Iron Horde doesn’t even exist anymore–thanks to efforts of that entire that expansion-- but you still want to make it a thing regarding characters who were either too young to have ever been in the Iron Horde or have long since turned against it and shown themselves to be repentent. All as part of your attempts to justify/deflect/downplay the terrible things being done right now or in the future by Xe’ra, Yrel and the Light.

The Scarlet Crusade arc, meanwhile, was a side arc at best that ended with the Scarlett Crusade still being around and functioning. Yet you insist that Blizzard not explore that thread as part of the focus of a future expansion the way they’ve done with all these other villainous forces in every other expansion because apparently that would be too much.

You’re only interested in coming back to the Xe’ra/Yrel stuff only if shows that Xe’ra, Yrel and the Light are ultimately in the right for all the bad things they’ve done, the bad stuff they’re doing, and any bad things might do in the future.

Order/Light=good and Chaos/Shadow=Bad is an even bigger cliché that’s been played straight way more often in the fantasy and fiction at large. It’s so ingrained to the point where having agents of Order/Light engaging in terrible things we decry the Chaos/Shadow for are often given a pass by you and many others. You criticize ideas for being clichés, but want to uphold things that are even more cliché.

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1156

Read my comments carefully. I said some Mag’har are dressed like the Draenei (such as Lightbound Warpriests), and others are wearing Mag’har fashion with a few light crystal slapped on (such as Lightbound Sharpshooters). Look up their attire in the scenario or on Wowpedia.

How can the primacy of humans be in place on AU Draenor in-universe? If anything, that’d mean it was the humans who wiped out the Orcish language, not the Draenei. Your language claim has been debunked, just drop it please.

Slaughtering and converting people are two different things, they can’t to both, it’s one or the other.

1157

If you haven’t realized already his arguments aren’t coming from a place of internal WoW lore, but rather from his external RW religious beliefs … at least to some extent. To some effect he’s superimposing his own RW faith onto the fictional Cosmological Force the Light, which is why he’s very opposed to the Light being portrayed as anything but wholly benevolent and pure. As well as its practitioners. It is also why he is uncomfortable with the idea that those Light practitioners have their faith challenged, manipulated, or even used against them. And why he’ll make excuses for when the Light deters from that benevolent image.

And ultimately, its this external factor that plays a part in his rather strong stance on the Lightbound, Yrel, Geya’rah, and the AU Mag’har. As well as why he’s reluctant to attach the word Genocide, to what (as far as we can tell right now, even from their own single source of dogma) is very much an example of cultural genocide.

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1158

The orcish sharpshooters are not wearing Mag’har clothing. They’re wearing a Lightforged draenei outfit and armor piece that was first introduced in Legion, as seen here on a Lightforged draenei.

https://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/screenshots/normal/642856-enstraa.jpg

Compare with…

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/File:Lightbound_Sharpshooter_female_orc.jpg

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/File:Lightbound_Sharpshooter.jpg

The orcish Lightbound sharpshooters wear draenei armor, not “Mag’har fashion with a few light crystal slapped on”.

Like I said before…

They (Lightbound orcs) don’t speak Orcish to anyone. They don’t use Worgs, they ride into battle in Lightbound warframes like the Draenei. They don’t follow the ancestors or spirits, they follow the Naaru/Light like the Draenei. They don’t fight using Mag’har styles, they wear Draenei weapons/armor and use the same units/tactics as the Draenei. They shout things at Mag’har Orcs like, " We come to save you from your savagery!" The Lightbound draenei have no interest in continuing the Mag’har traditions and as seen here, have actually replaced them with their own.

Genocide often does indeed include the “join” option, as it’s common for there to be collaborating members originating from the ethnic/national/racial/religious group being targeted for destruction. We’re told that not all orcs who joined did so willingly. Some had the Light forced upon them.

I'm reading your posts carefully. It's how I can point out all the many instances in which you're mistaken. If you want people to drop the arguments you yourself raised, you need to stop making and defending said arguments in the first place.

Honestly, you did ask for an explenation. Do you really want an explaim how WoW’s human characters and humanity in general have outsized influence/presence/power compared to other races? Or how one of the ways this manifests in the game is by having their language be the default even when ?

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1159

This too. You established that a while back in this very thread and the matter’s come up in a couple of other threads Thadeus has started.

I’m limiting my critiques and counter-arguments to lore and writing in simply because those are the arguments being presented to us at this time.

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1160

After seeing that comparison, I see that you were right about the sharpshooters’ attire.

Evidence still needed that they don’t speak Orcish anymore, and keep in mind I debunked your previous argument on that. I’m not sure about the Mag’har losing their ancestors or spirits, since the Draenei had places for ancestral souls such as Auchindon so it seems unlikely the Orc ancestor spirits would be lost.

Given the Draenei’s experiences with the Iron Horde, they have plenty of experience with orcish savagery and good reason to call them that (one of the meanings of “savage” is “violent”).

Your last paragraph made me laugh.

1161

You misrepresent me, that’s not all this is about, and ganging up on me doesn’t help your case.

No religion, including the one I follow, has all it’s followers be benevolent, I know that. I also know there’s bad Light users (Scarlet Crusade and paladins turning to evil like Arthas come to mind).

As I said in a previous post, and you acknowledged, given the circumstances maybe Yrel and the AU Draenei were not the best choice of characters for this villain batting. I’m also reluctant to call what Yrel’s group did cultural genocide when there’s still a lot of information we don’t know and people like you and Tammy jump to conclusions without full information…

Especially when we have an actual in-game cultural genocide to compare it to - the Pandaren cultural genocide by Lei Shen’s mogu (including the destruction of their art and literature, the execution of their leaders and philosophers - I can think of a certain Mag’har leader who was still standing, no speaking a language beside the mogu tongue, no pandaren may wield weapons or be literate-Geya’rah herself said she’s literate… all according to the in-game scroll “The Pandaren Problem”)- and the Lightbound fall short of them.

1162

The book and the game are at odds again.

In Calia’s (ugh) story with her trying to reconcile with the undead night elves, they meet in Tirisfal, next to an outpost occupied by Forsaken characters with an abomination. This wasn’t an oversight, they could had deliberately removed those NPCs because they’re 10 feet away.

Brill and Lordaeron are probably off the map but Deathknell and the surrounding camps seem occupied. Whether the book is accurate, or the game is accurate, is anyone’s guess and the half-assed effort is more than frustrating.

1163

You made the claim that they stil speak Orcish. The fact that not one single Lightbound orc continuing to speak orcish. Additionally, Auichodon houses draenei spirits. Not orcish ancestral spirits or elementals. There’s no evidence supporting your claim that the Lightbound are preserving Mag’har language or religious traditions.

The the Iron Horde was defeated by Draenei and other Mag’har over 30 years ago and the generation of orcs now is pretty much too young to have even joined. The High Exarch’s sermon plainly states they’re doing this to create an army united in the Light that they believe will bring order to countless troubled worlds.

Lightbound are the violent aggressors in their conflict with the Mag’har. Them referring to Mag’har as “savages” clearly isn’t a reference to use of violence.

Yes, what the Mogu did was also genocide. There have been multiple instances of genocide in the history of the Warcraft universe. The Lightbound do not fall short of the term. That any orcs exist that aren’t either dead or converted to the Lightbound is simply because the Lightbound hadn’t gotten them yet. We see Lightbound continuing to try to kill and convert Mag’har. They’re still in the process of committing genocide.

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1165

What punishment did AU Grom suffer for his war crimes leading the Iron Horde?

Was he executed? No.
Was he imprisoned or exiled? Doesn’t look like it.
Was he banned from leadership? Clearly not.

You keep talking about the new generation of Mag’har, I point out they’ve fallen in lockstep behind the former leader of the Iron Horde who is still alive and among them.

All the characters in that scenario speak english. If we assume that English is Warcraft’s “common”, then no one is speaking the Orc language or the Draenei language, so all the character speaking the same language is not proof that the Mag’har lost their language. There is no evidence the Lightbound are wiping out the Orcish language.

The Lightbound have historical reason to call the Orcs “savage”, those historical reasons play a role, no matter how much you want to whitewash the pre-BfA history of the AU Mag’har.

What the Mogu did was a cultural genocide, but the Lightbound are missing a few of the Mogu’s deeds; the Mag’har among the Lightbound are clearly literate, didn’t have their leaders purged (otherwise why are AU Draka and AU Grom still alive?) and are allowed to have and use weapons.

If this lack of care is how Blizzard treats Yrel, I have good reason to be wary of how they’ll handle Turalyon’s story arc, especially since the writers seem to want to apply “morally grey” to every villain but the Light-wielding ones… then it’s all “mustache-twirling fanatics”

1166

I do keep bringing up 30 years and a new generation. The Iron Horde are long gone. Gromm hasn’t repeated anything like it and has made penance in Yrel’s eyes to the point where she calls him a friend. We’re not told specifically what he did, but we know he did it. Yrel has no problem with the idea of working with Gromm. She even wants him to join her and the Lightbound.

AU Draka and AU Grom were still alive because the Lightbound hadn’t been able to successfully kill or convert them yet.

So your argument about why the Draenei have preserved the orcish language is? Because remember, you’re the one who made the claim in an attempt to try and absolve the Lightbound of engaging in genocide.

Additionally, you’ve claimed they preserved the Mag’har tradition of animal husbrandry. They don’t use Worgs, they ride into battle in Lightbound warframes like the Draenei. You claimed they maintain Mag’har religion. They don’t follow the ancestors or spirits, they follow the Naaru/Light like the Draenei. You claim they maintain Mag’har clothing and fighting styles. They don’t fight using Mag’har styles, they wear Draenei weapons/armor and use the same units/tactics as the Draenei. You claim they maintain Mag’har culture, but they shout things at Mag’har Orcs like, " We come to save you from your savagery!"

Genocide, cultural or otherwise, doesn’t require the targeted group to be illiterate either. It includes deliberately killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group, along with suppression of cultural activities that do not conform to the destroyer’s notion of what is appropriate. The Mogu and the Lightbound engage in genocide.

Blizzard hasn’t given Lightbound Yrel much development because Lightbound Yrel hasn’t had much screentime. If she, Xe’ra and Turalyon end up as antagonists/villains in a bigger “Tyranny of the Light” story, they’ll get a lot more development and all the same “morally grey” treatment as everyone else that you want them to get. They’ll probably get an even better treatment, as Blizzard’s been shy about comitting to showing the Light/Alliance related characters as antagonistic for a while now. I fully expect much of the blame to be placed on Xe’ra and how she manipulated Yrel and Turalyon.

You’re literally arguing that Xe’ra/Yrel’s/Lightbound’s actions aren’t terrible and complain that that her portrayal won’t be lightened in any way in future content. The only person trying to white-wash anything here is you.

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1167

No, I really do not think I am misrepresenting you. You’ve allowed your personal RW biases to slip through the cracks on these exact types of topics a few too many times for me to be completely off the mark. Between your dogmatic nonsense about how the Light needs to be the exception to the rule of layers and nuance now being applied to the other 5 cosmologies. And wholly a benevolent force, which it never really was. Your kneejerk rejections to not only the idea that some Light practitioners be allowed darker shades, but even having their faith challenged or used against them. And while you’ve certainly dialed it back these days, some of your justifications for the Lightbound in your earlier threads did seem to amount to “they’re savages who need to be converted”. Which especially popped up whenever you were trying to handwave away why it was understandable Yrel was targeting those NOT of the Iron Horde in her crusade.

Even your refusal and discomfort to attach the term “genocide”, to what very clearly is a multicultural genocide (from all indications atm), and your burying Yrel in the benefit of the doubt while ruthlessly trying to frame Geya’rah in the worst ways you can. Despite the fact that BOTH are suspect by your own metrics, and both are victims, by your own metrics. So … truly, I do not think I’m misrepresenting you here. At least not completely. And a major part of your discomfort with this issue does come from your own real world faith. Which is why we have like a 200 post discussion between you and Tammy where she’s just slamming you repeatedly with lore points to counter your arguments, and that lore just bounces off a lot of the time.

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