Player Agency and Covenants

After reading through the many threads here about the Covenant System, I kept seeing different 2 opposing opinions about what “agency” means. Both generally agreed that it should involve choice and consequence – but differed when it came to the degree that the consequence had on the game.

Those supporting a “lock-in” approach (currently the planned approach) state that they value the “Role-Playing” influence that it has on the game. Having the consequence apply to the entire character, across all specializations and across all content types magnifies the covenant one “locks into”.

Those that don’t support being locked-in argue against the approach for a variety of reasons.

  • They mention the RP aspect of the game – but feel that combining the abilities with the covenant aesthetics tears away at the RP component and that these 2 aspects (aesthetics/abilities) should be separated from one another. The consequence crosses boundaries between storyline and gameplay.

  • Additionally, they argue that the lock-in system essentially removes player agency because you’re not given a choice across the various ways to play the game (class – role – content). Consequence can still exist – but within a given content; the way choosing a spec, talents, and essences carry the consequence of not being able to use and leverage the options not chosen for the content the players are about to partake in.

  • Even further, they argue additional negative impacts on the game with the lock-in approach that stack on top of the existing “meta” discrimination of classes and specs.

In the end – I haven’t seen any “canon” definition for “Player Agency” to go off of to say which side is right or wrong.

But as an RP-based player myself, I have a hard time understanding what benefit a “lock-in” based system provides for myself or for the game.

I feel like, as a casual RP player – I should support the “lock-in” approach. But I can’t understand why and what benefit I gain from a system like that. If I’m supporting a system that restricts others from playing the game how they’d like to play it, when there’s so many ways to play it, across classes with various roles- all so that…I gain nothing(???)… then I feel like I’m supporting a system that punishes other players that simply want to play the game more competitively than myself for no good reason outside of spite.

Even if there was a gain to be made by a player like me – at best it would make me feel bad and selfish about it. But without a benefit – it seems outright sadistic and hateful towards other players that just want to give their teammates/guildees their best. It’s supporting a system that punishes players for just wanting to play the game optimally – which is mind boggling to me.

If the system was changed to be flexible, and allow for players to change their covenant abilities like we can do with specs and talents – it wouldn’t take anything away from me for staying committed to a covenant. I would still have that option and don’t need to extend the consequences of that choice onto everyone else. As an RP player - I would lose NOTHING if others were allowed to change their abilities.

So for those that support the “lock-in” system, help me understand: Why should I ever want to impose such a restrictive system on others when it diminishes so much about the gameplay for them when I don’t even gain anything in exchange? And even if I did gain something…what would be worth it for that kind of penalty on so many others? Because I can’t come up with anything for either of those questions that doesn’t leave me feeling like a bad person.

For everyone in general – where do you want the player agency “consequence” to be drawn? Across your entire character, or based on the content you’re about to jump into?

Lastly – are there any other ideas for how to actually provide a benefit for players that stick with a covenant for the long term while not punishing players that want to change their abilities?

  • I, for example, would love a Covenant Care Package when I open my weekly chest that includes supplies for my professions – and maybe they scale upward for each week I’ve stayed committed. Maybe you get a stipend for repairs for that week for your loyalty.

These benefits wouldn’t be available for those that jump around – but at least they could jump around and play the game optimally – which I can’t understand why anyone would want to inhibit.

I’m all for more RPG choices and aspects to be added to the game, but not at the cost of forcing players into sacrificing/ compromising performance when WoW is so diverse in the forms of gameplay, content, and difficulty level.

Thanks for your time. Look forward to hearing some thoughtful responses.

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I think the thing that bugs me most is the player punishment aspect of locking in to a covenant, when it could just be a purely cosmetic thing if they standardized the abilities. I already hate reforging my azerite armor as it is, I can’t imagine the new “change your covenant to this to do that” that this whole system implies.

I totally get their annoyance with players feeling the need to go cookie cutter in all aspects of the game, but I mean… they design the talents and stuff, and numerically somethings perform better than others, sooo…should I just be significantly worse than other players just because I want a tombstone backpack lol

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I think drawing it at the content level makes sense.

If this was a game with just PvE raid content, and we were locked into both a class and spec when we create our character - a broad approach would make sense.

But so many players select their class BECAUSE of the various roles and types of content that they can play - locking them in that broad with the game we have today just doesn’t make sense.

Like you said - it ends up punishing players that just want to play the best they can while not really benefitting anyone else.

Standardizing the abilities would work too - but I do appreciate the different abilities all around. It would be a shame to lose them all.

Agreed here. This was a huge step backwards from the tier set bonuses we had in Legion.

What about being given re-rolls on your M+ key for that week? The way we used to be able to re-roll by deleting the key? Except now it’s baked into the game and it comes as a loyalty perk.

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I don’t even understand this - with so many options, it’s less cookie cutter for the game as a whole and more a later of customizing for each piece of the game you’re playing.

Right now you get choice for each piece of the game you play. But the covenant restrictions take away that choice, and as a consequence, the agency players have.

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I’m one of those that think when you join a covenant it should open a talent row based on that covenant and should give you an option like other talents to change according to the content you do . If you are in a situation where aoe is the best option you take it same can be said for single target and pvp .

Also to be honest even the average player is going to go to sites like ICY-Veins to not only pick the best talents for their spec but the best covenant ability and which covenant is the best for their spec or class.

The covenants should provide said cosmetic aspect but also a random buff daily that isn’t an actual part of a toons power but an enhancement for said power like a crit buff .

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There are no choices in this game.

You get to change your spec and pick your most ideal talents freely and easily in every aspect of the game.

In arenas hey day even you had to build your character first then go into the match. Now you even get to see the enemy classes AND specs and you get to quickly adjust your talents to be most optimal against that given team.

There are no trade offs. There are no strengths and weaknesses. There are no choices.

There is only optimization.

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Those are all choices we get to make. That’s player agency in action! The consequence to those choices is not being able to utilize the talents, essences, etc. that you DIDN’T CHOOSE.

Optimization for either fun/meme’s or for completing difficult content involves thinking and making choices after considering tons of variables.

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I’m so confused - everything you listed is, by definition, a choice a player gets to make.

When they give you one choice that cascades across everything - that’s limiting agency to that single choice while drastically magnifying the consequence and eliminating a lot of strategic thinking that players exercise in the game.

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There is no strategy.

There is no thought to overcome weakness and excel on a strength.

There is no consequence because you freely choose the best option for every endeavor.

There is only optimization at all times.

Every dungeon.
Every raid boss
Every BG/Arena match. You even get to tailor it based on your opponent so make sure you have full optimization against a specific class.

It’s a D&D powergamer session.

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I don’t think you understand the words you’re using.

Optimization: the action of making the best or most effective use of a situation or resource.

Strategy: a plan of action or policy designed to achieve a major or overall aim.

Part of the plan of action one uses when they’re strategizing is to optimize based on all the variables at hand.

When you have choice - you can make different selections for each dungeon/raidboss/arena; and you can even make different selection for the SAME dungeon/raid boss/arena based on a different team composition.

There’s no one clear answer - and by being able to make multiple selections as an answer, player agency is created; with a consequence still existing by not benefitting from the options that weren’t chosen.

When those choices are taken and away and restricted to one selection at the beginning of an expansion - player agency is minimized while the consequence is increased; and to no tangible benefit.

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I don’t think we’re playing the same game then.

Are you talking about World of Warcraft?

Because not only do the groups I play with think, implement strategy, and practice thoughtful consideration in our gameplay, resulting any MANY DIFFERENT choices being made - you also see this happen all the time on twitch streams.

They consider what classes they have - what gear people have - what essences are being used - if they’re going for time or just completion - if it’s a fortified week or a tyranical week - what kind of tank they have - what kind of healer they have - what dungeon they’re running - what their plan for pulls is - what kind o cc they have available - the list goes on and on… So much goes into the decisions these players make before they make their differing choices from one part of the game to another.

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To me, this is what would increase the amount of player agency.

I’m wondering how a buff to crit isn’t an actual part of a toons power?

What I mean as an actual part of a toon’s power are our abilities be they in our talent rows or our spell books.

THink of Covenants instead being like trink or tier procs instead of giving abilities . Rather then giving us actual abilities.

Ah gotcha.

I think they may be trying to get away from the passive proc ideas - I’ve heard a lot of people complain about that with the corruptions this tier.

A lot of the complaints I have seen about how punishing getting the wrong Corruption can be and how random the good corruption affects drop.

I’ve also seen plenty people complain because another rng power to gear was not asked for when people said they wanted WF/TF gone .

Most asked for basic gear back and quite a few myself included wanted that and a system like in MoP and WoD where you could use valor to upgrade gear.

More player control was what was asked for and they gave us TF 2.0

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I can see the argument that Covenants create player agency. But I would also argue that Covenants as they’re now proposed aren’t going to be a rewarding choice for a lot of players.

The idea of picking a Covenant that expresses who you are as an individual is brilliant. It’s empowering. It’s a fantasy experience that players love to have in a game. You can interact with like minded individuals for a social experience. Then when you’re out in the world adventuring, and you see another player with the same style of Covenant gear or mount, it creates a feeling of having something in common with others. Know that’s player agency!

Having player agency as choosing between, character fantasy and immersion or character performance in PvP, Mythic+, or Raids, only ends up making either choose feel bad.

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Yeah I’ve heard that too - but even the top “pro” players, in addition to many heroic/mythic raiders, have said that the “good” corruption effects aren’t reliant on gameplay.

In other words - you don’t need to be a good player and know how/when to use the corruption for it to benefit your performance. It’s just passive - boring; and so your dps benefits from it is not only RNG based from getting the item in the first place, but then RNG based and passive while you play with it.

The activated abilities seem to try and address this - but create a lot more problems in the process the way they’re being executed.

This is the best part for people like myself and Ralph that are posting on the forums.

I don’t think people properly value the enjoyment some of us get when we know other players suffer in terms of performance, or even just psychologically when systems like this are implemented.

People underestimated the influece we have when we spam the Blizzard devs via these forums , twitter, etc. requesting these kinds of changes.

When everyone else remains idle - we become the squeaky wheel that gets addressed - at the cost of everyone else enjoyment of the game.

This is why Blizzard won’t change the system - the people against it won’t be heard over those of us that enjoy the punishment put on others.

I feel the same way - I don’t understand why people want to push this choice and division on everyone else.

Most of the threads I read supporting the system are more happy about the consequences people are exposed to rather than anything positive it actually puts into the game.

It reminds of the Westboro Baptist Church and how they would go to military veteran funerals to harass the mourning family members.

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