This is where I think most of the disagreements come.
For some people in SL, they will just be a warrior or a rogue still. To them, covenants are just talents/spec you cannot swap. Which seems terrible yes.
To others, In SL they will be night fae warrior or venthyr warrior. Instead of covenants as talents, its like picking a class a second time.
You are missing my point. I am very aware that people just want to min max within their own classes. Its just the principle of it. People were able to commit to a decision with classes, why can’t they with covenants.
Which comes down to what I said earlier with viewing covenants as “talents” or “classes”
In my eyes, people were fine with choosing classes. Im sure choosing a covenant wont be as bad as they make it out to be due to that fact. Maybe I’m wrong, buts just how I see it.
This is what’s frustrating about the choice matters concept with covenants, though. It’s that choice only matters when everyone has to make a choice. That flying example is the quintessence of ‘choice matters’: if one doesn’t choose to fly, it definitely impacts the game. Isn’t that the concept of choice matters?
We can make choices now: what azerite traits to use, what essences to use, what trinkets to us, all of which are based on fun, immersive game play.
I like the narrative theme of the covenants. I am bummed that they will make trying other aspects of the game harder. This is a paradigm that’s not be active in the game ever. I suppose we can compare them to the vanilla priest racial benefits, or paladin v shaman (or even then paladins in the different factions getting different seals).
I’m looking forward to trying it, but their are ao many consequences tied to one choice. This seems like it would be tantamount to a choose our own adventure book, but there’s only one choice, one fork on the road, that then funnels into one story.
Why not choose a covenant motif, then choose a soulbind, then choose a covenant ability, and then a class ability?
I’m rambling, and I’ve got nothing but mutual respect, Dex, sorry if it comes off aggressive. Truly.
Because classes are the vehicle we voluntarily chose to enter the world of warcraft in. Covenants are a borrowed power that are forced on us to progress, and since progress means different things to different people it sucks that we can’t more easily swap the power they offer (or just, get rid of the power all together but it’s probably too late for that)
This doesn’t have to be true. Borrowed power, in and of itself, isn’t a bad thing. Classes feeling incomplete is bad, and Blizzard really needs to fix this, but if they worked the same way tier and stuff did there wouldn’t be an issue. Your problem isn’t really “Borrowed Power”, it’s bad class design.
I only played in bc, but I just remember the expensive cost of changing specs. Is that what you’re referring to? Let me know what I’m missing, I’m definitely willing to learn.
And this may also be a semantic discussion about what constitutes choice.
Yes, changing specs was prohibitively expensive. Moreso in vanilla than BC, as there was more gold floating around in BC. There were also the racial priest abilities in Vanilla, but you already mentioned those. If you didn’t play it, you wouldn’t really understand just how much of a requirement it was to have a Dwarf Priest for Fear Ward if you were Alliance.
Good point. Thank you for the perspective. Do you think that helps promote or detract from the concept of covenants if a very specific race/class combo was required in content that harkens to the covenant paradigm now?
To me, covenants feel like the concept of ‘sub classes’. Which I can appreciate is cool. I can also appreciate a sub race that yields a racial - perhaps akin to the covenant ability. But then maybe balance that out by an additional choice that is less strict ( yielding the current class ability).
Anyway, I’m rambling. Thank you for the perspective.
Trade-offs add another layer of complication the game needs. If you want to min/max–you can still min/max but now there’s something that you need to take into account that you can’t readily change with the click of a button.
Trade-offs are not single player exclusive. Just because this is a MMORPG does not mean the game has to ignore the RPG.
Classes were bad before borrowed power, so the point is moot.
For anecdotal reference, I don’t sacrifice RP / character integrity for min/max (best example here is that I don’t use Healthstones. Heathen things even when mythic raid prog).
I want to be able to pick a motif (covenant) that matches my characters rp but not have that tied behind what appears to be a lackluster to use skill.
Throughput isn’t a consideration. I reckon that both the “throw five shields” and the “unholy consecrate” skill from kyrian and venthyr respectively won’t be game changing, but when compared to how thematic blessings are for the paladin class, night fae just clicks - but only because of the paladin class ability. The night fae covenant motif doesn’t (yet) jive with my backstory.
Thus my main boggle is not tied to throughput. It’s tied to my character identity, something I’ve not heard mentioned yet.
Legion was class identify - more about spec identity I humbly think. BFA was faction identity. And now it’s back to class Identity with depruning.
The character identity is freely up to the player to choose. But I feel there is a lot of baggage that comes with one choice (which covenant) that feels like your rolling for a backstory for a DnD session that lasts most of 2 years.
Ok, lol maybe a bit over the top. Nonetheless, thank you for your respectful input. Sorry for being verbose.
It doesn’t, because they’re incompetent. Not because they’re twirling their moustache about making making my class feel like garbage.
How much of the Night Fae story have you seen? I can understand this point of view, but past mostly mechanical things, we don’t know that much about how they feel. Unless you have beta.
even when mythic raid prog).