Melee ability.
More DoTs = more health regen. Faster you heal up. Also you could more easily move.
Just examples of how Blizzard has provided other classes more consistent ways to negate damage.
Leech is such a minor help to Survival Hunters. The healing abilities could be beefed up to help with its survival.
I quit playing hunter last tier bc BM was meta. I absolutely hate that snooze of a spec.
Survival is where it’s at.
Use it in melee range. Your main problem is that you need to break up the rotation by clicking a dot with no interaction every 15 seconds.
You have plenty of DoTs right now and each heals you through Leech and you have complete freedom of movement because you are melee.
that’s 4 dots minimum with a potential and likely 5th.
The examples you gave don’t even match your initial point at all. I feel like this argument is going nowhere.
Funny way to phrase it I suppose, but no…because they brought him up, and their conversation led to talking about SV, and historical design, and then other people joined in and replied to parts of what had already been said, etc. etc. etc.
Not sure why you’re fixated on this time period-comparison when it’s not even relevant to why I brought up that era as an example. You yourself made an argument further down this topic which happens to be the reason(arguments like it) why I brought it up.
This one:
You just said doing so, and what they’ve done since Legion, has made MM into a design mess? I suppose doing that makes sense to some people, but it certainly isn’t a sound way to further class and spec design, talking design philosophies.
I wouldn’t say so, no. Survival used regular ammunition which was augmented/enhanced with additional effects, such as posion/venom/explosives.
Maybe I’m not understanding what you mean with “out of the ordinary” or “unconventional”. To me, looking at old SV, the idea of using enhancing effects on ammunition/arrows, within the scope of warcraft, isn’t at all that unconventional.
Agreed.
Agreed x2.
It’s an expression, typically used as a descriptor for a scenario where, in this case, so few people have made such requests to make it worth considering.
There have been requests on this very forum to make MM into a melee spec as well. Certainly not a whole lot of them, but there have been some. Does that mean that we should consider those requests? Do you think that the devs should consider making MM into a melee spec?
The core theme and fantasy has been clear since they first introduced core specs to the game. The different concepts they’ve implemented, and any issues with the design doesn’t take away from the intended theme/fantasy.
“samey” how?
At the time of the SV rework, SV and MM did not share any signature abilities.
One spec(MM) was themed around, and focused on sharpshooting and archery. Mechanically, it was focused heavily on front-loaded damage and burst.
Meanwhile, the other spec(SV), was themed around augmented shots and traps, with enhancing effects. Mechanically, it was focused heavily on concistency, on dealing steady damage over time through periodic effects.
Ironically, most people who make the “samey” argument tend to focus on abilities available through the talent section of our class at the time. And since our talents were intentionally designed to be class-wide, it makes it kind of a moot point. It makes the argument irrelevant when the literal philosophy of the time is for that part of the class to be shared. Adding in what I said above about each core spec, the “samey” argument simply doesn’t hold up. Not unless you’re one of those who only look at it with the mindset of “both specs focused primarily on the use of a ranged weapon, and there’s no difference between 1 ranged shot vs another”.
Who is they? A warlock that doesn’t like MSV? That’s the big boogeyman you’re talking about?
you brought up pre-legion. those years are relevant because it is pre legion. it’s an otherwise arbitrary design time to bring up and legion+beyond is just as relevant for design discussions
Sure it is. I’ve been saying for a while MM needs a ground to ceiling rework to sharpen up the fantasy. A Sharpshooter with different ammo types fits fine.
Doesn’t matter and not relevant, they said that “nobody asked for X” which isn’t a true statement.
So when MM is a disaster it’s okay because the core theme and fantasy has been “Clear” (sometimes wind arrows, sometimes aimed shots, sometimes rapid arrows). Gotcha
In all 3 specs in the archaic times of the game, your Hunter would stand back and the focus would be on you making the same exact auto shot animations with the occasional special shot animation.
Go up and read the replies for yourself, they’re still there…
It’s not relevant to my point of why I used that era of [hunter] class design as an example. That’s literally all it was, an example. I guess, if you absolutely want me to clarify any sort of underlying reason for why I picked specifically that, it’s because that time is usually one where people accused the specs of being “samey” when on the topic of MM vs SV discussions, usually without acknowledging the philosophies of class design, and why things were the way they were.
Again, you’re missing the point. It’s not about redesigning MM to be a sharpshooter with various ammo types, it’s about the fact of how MM, as the sharpshooter spec, shouldn’t also be designed to house a second main fantasy/theme of a munitions expert and trapper(old SV).
Not sure if you’ve understood this part of my arguments yet but, old SV wasn’t themed as a spec which used different ammo types. And yes, you could argue that it did allude to the use of various ammo types, but the main fantasy was about augmenting ammunition/arrows with various effects or attachments, such as posion, venom, explosives, or magic. The actual characteristics of the ammo used wasn’t the primary focus, but the effects put on said ammo was.
Are you being deliberately obtuse? Again, often when people type or use that phrase, it’s an expression commonly used as descriptor of a scenario where, in this case, the number of requests are so few that they simply aren’t worth considering. Another example of this would be when some posters have mentioned how “no one played MSV then”, where they refer to parts of the Legion days where only about 1-2% of all max-level hunters were playing as SV. Sure, it’s technically not “no one” but it’s a fairly insignificant number when talking representation and popularity. In SL, we saw the number of max level SV hunters settling around the 5-6% mark(with the exception of the very end), which is more than 1-2%, but still, not all that much.
In fact, if you check archive sites for the old forums, you will find that the number of posts where people ask for a hunter spec to be reworked to melee were about as frequent as those I mentioned where people request MM to be reworked to a melee spec, aka not many.
Not even close to what I said, but keep on trolling…
Wait, are you basing your arguments of similarities in terms of identity on the appearance of a hunter attacking a target? Or, with “archaic”, do you mean the initial vanilla/tbc days where, regardless of which category you spent the most point in, your abilities would be mostly the same ones used?
Either way, I’d recommend that you find something more relevant to back up your arguments, or at least bother to look at more than just visuals/aesthetics.
(Do note that I’m not convinced that you were actually serious with that comment, as per what you said before, when you said “samey”. Fair enough if you were, but more of the focus should be towards the mechanical side, on the ability design.)
Well, the person quoted that first brought up Bepples isn’t a MSV fan. They just don’t like Bepples.
And their opinion is valid, just like yours is.
I mean, the various ammo types are already in MM right now.
So clearly it isn’t a design space problem nor would it conflict that much.
This is pure semantics. There is no difference if a talent says “Using magically enchanted arrows” or “using arrows poisoned”. At the end of the day, it’s using a specialized shot whether augmented or obtained.
No? It’s just not logically sound to say things like “nobody asked for X” in matters of taste, because there is always someone asking for anything.
Just because someone disagrees with you doesn’t mean they’re trolling. If so, I could say the same exact thing about you.
Yes, because most players will watch their character in combat.
Even Wotlk-WoD, all 3 ranged hunter specs looked very similar with all identical weapon silhouettes, all identical attack animations, and barely different shot animations.
It’s telling you’re completely dismissing the visual medium because that’s one of biggest way players interact with their characters in this game. You can’t ignore it just because you don’t like it
i just want survival to go back to ranged where it belongs. was best of the 3 specs and made no sense going melee considering that the only “melee” hunters in lore were rexxar and beastlord darmac, both of which were melee BM hunters.
otherwise it would be nice to see blizzard revamp the survival hunter tree. because honestly i am sure there are a handful of players that really like melee survival, and because i am a thoughtful person that got love for my fellow players, i would not want to see something they love taken from them. so with that being said it would be nice to have a part of that talent tree dedicated to 100% ranged abilities and all they really gotta do is bring in more poisons / toxins / exploding arrows and exotic munitions for different fight scenarios.
i miss my serpent sting, black arrow, arcane shot, explosive shot, casting focus build cobra shot, and multi shot with serpent spread for aoe and then within the wod xpac with exotic munitions which added the dash of flavor. was so good.
that is what i would like to see.
it would probably be much easier to put black arrow into MM then adding a lot of unneeded ability synergy to SV’s tree to make RSV work
Additionally, it’s likely the old explosive shot won’t be returning because it was placed in the base hunter tree and redesigned. So unfortunately all of the back and forth including explosive shot in the wanting of a returning RSV is likely impossible due to this facet.
All hunter specs have access to the ability. And it has a similar cooldown (45 seconds versus the original 20-30). It just pops once and doesn’t get resets.
I do appreciate your love for the rsv spec and its sweet abilities. Unfortunately a lot of the abilities that you are describing have been baked into the “core” gameplay tree for hunters.
Explosive shot (in its new updated form), serpent Sting, and arcane shot are currently available to all three and the ability to spread serpent sting is currently attached to viper’s venom and then serpenstalker’s trickery / volatile bomb for mm/survival accordingly.
While i do agree the abilities are SUPER DUPER iconic, it is likely they wont be redesigned at this point since they are embedded in the base hunter tree and have either been redesigned or given a visual update (In Serpent Sting’s case).
yea for sure i agree. hunters will be getting huge revamps soon. if MM had access to kill command all 3 specs would be near identical. and in all seriousness that was blizzards “lame” excuse for getting rid of range survival in the first place when that could not be further from the truth since ranged survival was night and day from bm and mm.
but even if we had to use those abilities that are nowhere near meta or preferred it would just end up taking away from the spec fantasy. it worked well with ranged survival because all of the abilities fit right in with the identity apart from black arrow but in a way could of been conceived as some black mamba venom type shot instead of shadow dmg if you wanna step in the rp realm of it all.
but regardless hunters are due for a complete overhaul and i believe it is only a matter of time. every spec is to similar and if you wanted you can almost build all 3 specs near identical from an ability standpoint. while not optimal it can just about be done.
Huh? This isn’t the case at all.
SV focuses on MB, Kill Command to generate Focus, and Wildfire Bomb
BM focuses on Barbed Shot, maintaining stacks of Frenzy, and proper Focus management with Cobra Shot
MM does neither of these things at all
Nope, I don’t agree with this at all.
With SV being melee for going on 8 years (and with the BfA identity more or less cemented) it’s opened up a lot of design space for BM and MM. While many don’t like MM’s current iteration, it’s in no way similar to BM at all.
you missed the most crucial part of my post
While i don’t agree that ranged was entirely different (Explosive shot and Aimed shot procs being tied to Lock and Load, Cobra shot being shared by both Ranged Surv and BM and arcane shot being shared by the three at varying points of different expansions) I do think that that play style can be brought to hunter in some way or form whether it be in the MM/Survival tree.
I have stated in the past that hunter is suffering from an extremely bottom heavy base talent tree at the moment that forces hunters out of utility talents for pure damage at the bottom of the tree. Survival in it’s melee form doesn’t need a gameplay rework persay as much as it just needs a talent spruce-up. MM and BM both need some hefty work however, as they do both seem to be fairly negatively perceived right now even when they are performing well numerically.
Please note my suggestions here on the PTR forum page.
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/hunter-suggestions-for-102-and-beyond/1621018/1
No I didn’t, because it’s wrong and doesn’t make any sense. No way you can build SV or MM or BM the same, because they all have 3 very different specialization trees. If you choose to play the specs wrong then yes, you can “build them identical” but that applies to every single spec in the game.
no but what you are neglecting to see is that each of the 3 trees has the same class abilities that does not fit into each their spec identities. but within that “can almost”
boy you really read stuff wrong and then twist it in your own head. its like you are enraged with everything and just wait for the 1 single word you can put your own twist on to sound smart.
I disagree with this, Asthelon has been providing quite solid feedback and has been doing a good job of guiding conversation. They may be skewed a bit towards the melee side as I am but I heavily disagree that they are actively trying to mess with you or your posts.
well he went from
then with the same breath of oxygen
he full out tripped over his own feet just because he is either a troll or in a bad mood. 1 or the other. i have no time for people like this on here. they provide nothing for the discussions or the game. just ignore.
I understand the frustration, but he has provided quite a lot to this discussion in the way of working towards upgrading the currently melee hunter style.
Please note this post of his which is quite solid:
Again, please make sure to note that this is for the current iteration of hunter and is attempting to work with what we have now and not what could be.
Thanks!
P.S. it is important to note i do share their views on the fact that MM can take on a lot of the RSV toolkit if it did get it’s rework but i do not state this purely for the fact that its not relevant in convo