every single class in the game functions like this. that is why every single class has both a class tree and a specialization tree.
Did you read the rest of my post?
Go ahead and show me where you can pick mongoose bite or beast cleave on your marksmanship character.
you’re focusing on hunter talents when each spec has their own tree.
look at what you’re doing. you’re pretending that hunter is the only class in the game that has a class tree. you know on shaman, on enhancement, you can talent into lighting bolt, chain lighting, lava burst, frost shock, and flame shock just like elemental? I guess that means both of those DPS specs are practically identical
Or you know? Let’s also give MM melee abilities. That way, every Hunter spec can DPS in melee and range. And before you know it, you’re looking at an entirely versatile class able to handle any raid encounter.
In before the other full melee classes start asking for more ranged DPS…
Such as Archers(Warrior), Zen Archers(Monk), Dark Rangers(DKs)…
*If you have me pegged for an all-or-nothing, that would be correct. I promise you that if MSV or RSV went all the way for each, that’s going to improve the entire class. The crab bucket is ruining us all; let us all crabs enjoy open land or open water.
There’s still a deadlock. In 9.2.5 you could top the meters without being in melee at all. People remembered that, so now the struggle shifted in MSV’s favor…
Btw, do you know that Msty, the SV dump stat, only improves Focus-based attack damage? It’s about 17% at about 0 rating(from my gear’s showing). The best ranged ability, WFB, does not benefit from Msty. This is one among other things. Kill Command, an ability you SPAM, does NOT cost Focus and is castable at range. So the two most important abilities in the rotation only benefit from Haste and Vers, and Crit.
Withstanding the new Lunge talent change, nades(my preferred term from Team Fortress) are more readily used. It sucks it doesn’t use autoshot instead(otherwise it’d be even better). But this is what confuses people when they look at it, my dude. It’s as if we’re taken for a ride in this limbo.
*Don’t forget the Golden Inequality of Win: Class>spec>comp>GEAR>skill. Having Msty as a dump stat does improve gearing, but who would settle for a welfare 17%?
And a lot people felt the tier-set was very degenerate and we even asked for nerfs as it promoted bad gameplay. We’ve had this discussion before, however, where if you ignored your melee abilities (carve) you were missing out on more bombs
Yes I am aware
It does not cost focus because it generates our focus
you don’t spam it, you use it to generate focus if you aren’t at max focus
This is intended. Just like how SV does 50% less auto shot damage with a bow, to make sure the players know it’s a melee DPS
What’s confusing about it at all? Lunge promotes melee, your focus spender promotes melee.
Just because WFB doesn’t benefit from Mastery doesn’t mean anything. Every spec in the game has a dump stat. Look at things like Fire Mage, they avoid crit because they have a ton of guaranteed crits.
If you think SV is “confusing” with their melee v range split, then surely Beast Mastery is just as confusing since you can use all their abilities right up and close 5y away from the enemy with 0 cast time, like a warrior
Surely Enhancement is confusing for you as well, what with lighting bolt, chain lightning, elemental blast, primordial wave, frost shock, flame shock, and windstrike all being usable from 40y?
A lot of people, I assume, is the outer community. There’s the real problem. They only complained that it was overtuned. They didn’t care that you could cycle nades almost non-stop if you master the rotation.
*My testimony was that on my M+ runs, a certain Alliance guild couldn’t understand how I was doing near-comparable DPS for someone in their 240’s ilvl when they were in their 260’s and up. They were more shocked *of the metrics than me hanging in range 50-66% of the time.
You practically admitted culpability to one of the best things that happened to SV post-Leg being outright destroyed, but the struggle is not yet over…
Most of the melee attacks USE Focus, correct? Were you also aware of this? If you were aware of both, you didn’t see the contradiction?
It’s the irony: the mastery stat doesn’t improve melee DPS for a full melee spec, that you might as well pick up the others instead. I’m aware that OL’s Main Gauche is the same manner of buffoonery, but at the same time no one is confused about Combat/Outlaw being a full melee spec.
During pheromones especially, you better believe it will get used a lot. You don’t do jack squat of anything else without KC. It’s bread-and-butter, since it’s also a PET based attack.
When did white hits become that important post-Leg? Now I know that Blizzard worked to better incorporate weapon DPS but it was for YELLOW hits. No one should care so much about whites.
However, Killshot and other key abilities can’t be done without a 2Her.
The same can be said for Marks, since the dead zone has been gone for eons beyond remembrance now in Retail.
But you see by these talking points the revamp has got to really DIG deep and uproot these pesky weeds. I’m literally telling Blizzard where the weeds are as I say these things. “See that weed? It’s choking out the good MSV grass. Pull that one out,” and if they don’t do it, their yard will look like crap.
Edit 2: I haven’t even bought DF yet, but I’m excited to see how the revamp will settle this unless it doesn’t. The war should be won instead of it being continuous.
no the inner community of passionate SV mains. it was not a healthy gameplay loop to spam KC and RNG bomb resets.
Yes, of course I am aware of this. Again, this has no point to your argument? Plenty of specializations have dump stats. Thats the nature of having multiple stats, there is going to be a bad stat.
Even if Mastery affected everything, it’d still be behind Haste and Crit. Haste gives you more uses of everything in your kit and crit has extra synergy between sharp edges and master marksman.
Even so, just the last patch Mastery was not our “dump stat”, Versatility was.
This isn’t Ironic? Mastery stat DOES improve melee DPS. You just don’t pick it because the other stats improve it more.
Yes I am aware? You only use it, however, if you will generate focus without overcapping. You know how you efficiently spend Focus? Mongoose Bite.
You also don’t KC without doing anything else. Generating Focus without spending it is a waste
Yes? Just like Stormstrike can’t be used without a melee weapon or mutilate can’t be used without a dagger.
white hits make up a non neglible part of most melee DPS overall damage. especially when every melee dps in the game has interaction with their auto hits (moment of clarity, generating rage, windfury, main gauche, poisons, lunge, etc)
this has been the case for years and years. bloodseeker, a talent we have had for years and years, exclusively increases our auto speed
exactly! MM is practically a MM dps with your own logic since some of the abilities can be used in melee range.
what revamp are you talking about? just the hypothetical one?
the only major weeds are class-wide. no unique utility
I can respect that opinion. The FACT was that it was the MOST DAMAGE SV has done post-Leg. The TRUTH might be that Blizzard understood that the ranged ideal was more important, perhaps as a sign that they regretted how they implemented the Legion revisal.
This needs to go away, as gear matters. Gear matters a lot, especially on the PLAYER side of things. Do we want to make SV good? Let’s make the GEAR for it GOOD.
Not if WFB is expected to be PROMINENT, as in, I don’t know, the CURRENT TIER SET.
Here you go, just in case you weren’t paying attention…
THAT ALONE speaks volumes of WHAT TO GEAR FOR, AND WHAT’S STRESSED. Oh, you said that the 9.2.5 model wasn’t healthy? 10.1 tier set just took a buffalo diarrheal dump all over your argument.
I said for a FULL melee. I didn’t say it didn’t improve it at all. It benefits the better argument that SV isn’t quite the full melee just yet…coming soon™?
How did you conflate “get used a lot” to overcapping? Again, I never said to exclusively use KC and WFB(the two of three core ranged abilities). I’m aware you got to dump that Focus even in this current itineration.
I agree, and that’s the good part: MAYBE Blizzard would expand Focus usage past Raptors/MBs, Carves/Butcheries, and Serpent Stings. But maybe this is for braindead simplicity…don’t want to give BM migrants too much to think about, yea?
A DPS meter can show you as a percentage how much damage is done this way. You’re not looking at a whole lot, which means the yellow hits will have more gravity. Every little bit helps, but every BIG bit helps even more.
You noticed that I’m a “proud” BFA veteran? I mained MM for about 35 hours a week in its WPvP. Yes, I would know it better than anyone what fighting in melee as a MM is like. Why? Because MeleeCraft. It’s just too bad that we don’t have Deterrence and things like that, and, I dunno, FROST AND SNAKE TRAPS?
I don’t have any commentary for the new and improve tar traps yet, however.
The one that cannot come soon enough.
More will need to be done than this. That’s C-effort work, borderline passing. A better job and more initiative, plus a more securing vision, will be required to earn a B, A, or A+.
Edit: By the way, I apologize for the late reply. I’ve been on Classic and I’m half a level away from SIXTY! So I may be sleeping in the morning.
Again, you’re missing the point of why I brought it up. I just made a point of comparison between class and spec fantasy design philosophies, and how many players tend to argue based on those we have today, not what they were for the game back then.
It’s not about one opinion vs another, it’s about how many tend to argue with a fundamentally flawed base as their support.
I will touch on your more recent arguments about animations, and why it’s not really as relevant to the discussion of old SV as you say, further down.
Again, still not a primary concern for the topic of mixing MM an dold SV(RSV). Why? Again, the main focus of SVs identity/fantasy was to rely on augmentations and enhancements for ammunition/arrows and traps. It’s primary focus was not on what ammunition to use, for the purpose of accuracy in terms of aim or reach(as is the goal with those talents for MM, in theme).
MM uses projectiles which are designed to make the target bleed more? MM uses light vs heavy ammo? MM has a mix of rapid fire styled abilities and such focused on aim? MM has talents which are themed around the use of magic to get more shots out in a shorter timeframe(wind arrows)?
That’s all perfectly fine because it all fits that intended primary theme of a skilled sharpshooter and weapon handler. Neither of which really conflicts with, or is an adaptation of the old SV fantasy…
Except in this case, it very much is. The purpose of the magic used with for example Wind Arrows is not to augment or enhance specific shots to be more deadly, but simply to adhere to the existing fantasy of MM, where part of the goal is to be able to fire a lot of shots in a short timeframe.
In your example, one ability/talent is designed for the purpose of hitting a target with lots of arrows/bullets while the other ability focuses on inflicting the target with a deadly poison/venom.
There’s no difference? Yeah, right…
It’s an expression…
What’s so hard to understand about this?
I didn’t say as much. Though, considering the dismissive tone of your reply, and the mocking nature of it, what do you expect? You didn’t even properly address the point of what I actually said.
That’s quite the assumption. Either way, it’s not relevant to a discussion of mechanical design and gameplay.
And no, I’m not saying that noone is looking at their character’s animations.
I’m not dismissing it, nor ignoring it. But since the discussion about similarities between the identities of for example MM vs RSV are almost always about gameplay loops and mechanical applications and interactions, your point about animations really isn’t all that relevant. It sure isn’t the primary basis for why the devs said they decided to rework RSV to melee.
It’s not exactly hard to create a replacement for the current Explosive Shot in the class tree, to free up the ability to be swapped for an updated version suitable for the core gameplay of a modern RSV.
A lot?
Serpent Sting can stay as part of the class tree, they can just move it up to be the freely given starting talent for anyone who picks that modern version of RSV, similar to how BM and current SV gets Kill Command for free.
Arcane Shot was never exclusive to old SV. It’s a baseline class-wide ability. Modern RSV can just have talents that improve on that ability.
And for the specs where that is useful, it can stay that way. This doesn’t mean that a modern RSV can’t have the old Serpent Spread, allowing Multi-Shot to apply Serpent Sting to all targets hit.
Complete conjecture and as I said, several times now, you weren’t playing optimally if you ignored carve for the CDR, which is melee. so it seems like even blizzard understood melee importance
The gear for it is good? What are you talking about?? Every spec in the game has a worst stat. Survival just prefers Haste and Crit.
Please explain more what you’re trying to say here or why this is supposedly SV unique
No it didn’t? the 10.1 set has no RNG tied to and no incentive to spam a focus builder. Please take a second look at the page you just linked. You generate fractions of WFB CDR by spending Focus (Mongoose Bite/Butchery, both melee abilities).
The 9.2 set granted entire resets by spamming your builder. These are not the same thing at all.
Your point here is so nonsensical I don’t know how much I can go on.
Did you know Retribution Paladin (a melee DPS) has mastery as their worst stat? Did you know Mastery doesn’t impact all of their abilities?
How many abilities do you think the average spec has? I don’t think you’re thinking about the big picture here at all.
Yes…you spend Focus by heavy hitting exclusively melee abilities. That’s the “evidence” or whatever you keep going on about that it’s a full melee.
You keep acting like KC and WFB are the most used abilities, which isn’t true. The entire spec is in such a great design space now it’s a very even breakdown of MB, FOTE, KC, Butchery, and WFB.
So nothing real, just nonsense.
SV and BM have very strong and clear visions now. MM needs help, and bad.
===
Why do you keep avoiding the argument that if SV is “confusing” when it comes to RDPS vs MDPS then enhancement would equally be confusing? Isn’t it just as ‘confusing’ for BM?
Cobra Shot reduces the CD of KC, which is involved in the proper Focus management part. as you need to make sure you have Focus for KC but don’t have too much Focus to waste cooldown. I went ahead and edited that back in for clarity
Did you even read the discussion? That person was saying, right now that MM BM and SV are all built and played identical. Which is simply not true because each of the 3 specs have their own specialization trees, which I mentioned above. You even quoted it in your post to me.
I don’t think you’re following which is okay since they’re being really confusing.
Every DPS spec in the game takes similar talents in the class tree. That’s just how it works and that’s what I was saying. This person is “mad” that BM MM SV are identical because they can all talent into serpent sting, chakram, explosive shot, etc. They felt that all 3 specs play the exact same and use the exact same abilities, which isn’t true.
it’s relevant because it’s definitely one of the contributing factors. you can deny it if you want, but having 1 class have 3 different variations of “shoot bow” with little visual distinction on the animations the class uses and the visual profile/silhouette of the character, that’s going to impact how people perceive it.
before you say "well warlock is all "dark magic’ or warrior is all "hit things’ take a second to look at the actual spells/attacks used. Warriors DPS specs are very visually distinct insofar as one is dual wield and one is 2h. warlocks spells are all very different visually (bright green/orange fire, channeled drain magic, or globs of shadow).
My response to you was the exact same level of “dismissive” as yours was to me. You didn’t address what I said, all you replied with “well that’s not what I said” and didn’t elaborate at all, then decided to just call me a dismissive troll.
When you’re having a discussion with someone and trying to be reasonable and logical, you should use reasonable statements. it’s just the nature of having polite and a professional back and forth, especially when the discussion is about a decision regarding a change. you can’t say “nobody asked for this change” when it’s clear that statement is sweeping nonsense and, your favorite word, dismissive.
I thought the existing fantasy of MM was a sharpshooter? Now it’s a sharpshooter that can conjure up arrows made of air? Surely there’s a different way to “fire a lot of shots in a short timeframe” i.e. rapid fire.
It’s a mess of a spec and needs an identity overhaul
If you can say that RSV’;s fantasy was to rely on augmentations you cannot deny the fact that current MM has talents that exactly do that. You can disagree all you want, but using light or heavy ammo is quite literally augmenting your shots. Using shots that shrapnel out into razor fragments is augmenting your shots.
It would quite literally be easier to add a few more “augmentation” talents than completely rework SV to be ranged.
I know that it does, I just found it interesting that you left KC out from BM.
I know he did, and indeed, it’s not true.
I follow just fine, the choice of emoji was mostly aimed at how you argue about the mechanical differences between current specs yet, in our discussion, you put most of the weight in terms of identity on the aesthetics and visuals.
The same applied to the specs pre-Legion, just putting it out there…
Literally, apart from a select few class-wide abilities(ex. Multi-Shot), and Cobra Shot for BM/SV in WoD, the 3 specs did not share any signature abilities at all, nor did they have the same profiles or gameplay loops, or thematic focus, etc. Funny how that is.
You can argue this all you want, it’s not the topic of why most people accuse the specs of being the same/too similar. This being the reason as to why I said it’s not really relevant. Most arguments/discussions aren’t due to the subtleties of our animations and aesthetic differences(or, according to you, a lack thereof).
How was I dismissive here?
If you meant this(below), that’s because you didn’t address what I actually said above here…
Or, going further back…
…to which I replied:
Again, while they’ve reworked MM quite a few times over the years, the actual core fantasy of the spec, that being a sharpshooter and skilled weapon handler, that has never changed.
Anyway…
It’s neither nonsense, nor dismissive. It’s an expression used to highlight how few requests for a rework like SV there were that, by any metric, it wouldn’t be reasonable for those requests to motivate a rework of a spec that was in fact as commonly played as RSV was. Nor was there any significant discussions about the spec needing a rework because of X, Y, or Z.
…and skilled weapon handler/user. I believe I mentioned this part before as well. That part is generally portrayed through abilities that focus on firing a lot of shots in a short timeframe. If part of the fantasy involves the use of magic to accomplish that, it’s still fitting of the intended MM fantasy.
I can agree that using magic to fire wind arrows might not be the best way to portray it, but that certainly doesn’t make it more fitting of the old RSV fantasy because, again, RSV did not have a core theme and fantasy that focused on firing a lot of shots rapidly, neither with magic nor without it.
I never said that it doesn’t…
MM has:
Chimaera Shot, Salvo, Serpentstalker’s Trickery, and Wailing Arrow.
Light/Heavy ammo is just different types of ammo, it’s not ammo that’s been augmented with anything.
You don’t need to use augmentations/enhancing effects on your ammo to achieve that…
I’ve never said that they should rework SV to be ranged. And while it would be easier to “just add X to MM”, that wouldn’t achieve a playstyle/combined fantasy close to what RSV did, nor could be if developed for the modern game.
We’ve been over this already, RSV in 202X isn’t going to be the old RSV at all. There isn’t a single spec in the game, even without any identity changes, that plays the same as they did in 2015 or older. RSV won’t be a full range fully mobile dot dealer, simply because blizz doesn’t want full ranged specs to have full mobility.
I think we just need to stop this back and forth because you have such a narrow minded opinion of what can be considered augmentation and what can’t be.
To you, coating your ammunition is poison or getting someone to magically enchant it is enhancing it and making your own shrapnel munitions isn’t augmenting your attacks with specialized munitions.
It’s using special ammo for special situations. That’s RSV.
Right, so a few more talents would make it very similar to RSV.
Right, it had a limited fantasy of “using explosives and poison shots” which can slot in to current MM very well with the talents you just mentioned. Replace the nonsense wind arrows with other munition things.
It is nonsense? Saying “Nobody asked for X” when the context is an opinion is just an illogical thing to say in the discussion. You can say “Not a lot of people asked for X”. For someone who really likes to argue semantics when it comes to “this counts as augmentation shots and this does not” you’re awfully hung up on someone making hyperbolic claims and how it’s justified
Actually this brings up a great point. How is MM’s identity as a “skilled weapons handler” any different than every other melee DPS in the game? Is Arms Warrior, Fury, Survival, Monk, etc not skilled weapons handler? What makes MM particularly skilled?
Seems kind of silly to tack that on to MM when they don’t do anything particularly special with their weapon
Disagree, I have seen plenty of people say it was too similar visually prior to legion. again, just because you disagree or don’t have anything to say doesn’t mean it’s irrelevant
Two different discussions can happen at the same time bud. that person was saying right now all 3 specs are the same, which you just agreed isn’t true visually or mechanically.
Our discussion is 2006-2016 and in regards to how SV was reworked to have a more clear identity separate from BM and MM, where visuals would be an important part of that context
I don’t think anybody would disagree that SV does not have two feet in just one place but one foot in two different places.
Even so, I played a trump card about the current tier set bonuses. There’s a reason KC and WFB were promoted instead of the core melee abilities, and you’re not getting it. It’s you who isn’t looking at the bigger picture. I was actually thrilled earlier this year when I heard they were bringing it back.
Granted, it wasn’t the 9.2.5 model but it still promoted RSV play. Ironic that mastering the old mechanic took SKILL and MSV fan boys like you hated it when
all that was needed was a proper damage tuning. Trust me, “bad and unhealthy gameplay” equals “This is too hard for me to do because I want to swing a pole, not throw nades more.”
9.2.5 showed you where you stood with SV. You can look at my gear right now. It’s too bad I don’t have the new tier set bonuses as the old bonuses were turned off.
Well, you’re finding out that other SV enthusiasts have other interests. Plenty of us think that making SV a full melee is bad and unhealthy gameplay. A certain Barthilasian goblin comes to mind…
So even though MSV won, RSV is picking back up and still in the competition. Like I said, it’s a deadlock. It’s an intense game of American football.
Take a second to think here. Look at the last tier set. One season ago. It was Mongoose Bite/Raptor Strike focused.
Okay, now that we have that in your head, what do you think the playerbase would do if there were two tier sets back to back that did the same thing or focused on the same abilities?
They are not going to repeat a tier-set bonus that does the same thing and impact the same ability two tiers in a row. Look at the specs that have similar tier sets to last tier, they’re rightfully upset.
You’re not even talking sense now. Look at the old tier set. There was no difficulty in spamming KC at range and waiting for an RNG proc. Please tell me in detail how you think that is a skill check or difficult at all.
I am telling you that you were not playing optimally at range. You were missing out on CDR from Frenzied Strikes (carve/butchery reducing the CD of WFB by 1 second per target hit up to 5 seconds). You keep going on about difficulty when you are telling me right now you were playing the easier version (mindlessly spamming KC and proc fishing)
Look at the current 4-piece bonus. Look at what you get CDR from…spending Focus. What do you spend Focus on? Mongoose Bite and Butchery…
i think your view on the spec is inaccurate to the way it’s meant to be played. you think that our melee abilities and our ranged abilities are somehow part of two different design spaces and the devs just can’t make up their minds, but that’s not true at all; the ranged abilities are there to make us more versatile in combat. just as a feral druid mitigates downtime by having DoTs that can tick while they’re not actively on their target, a survival hunter mitigates downtime by having some abilities that can be used at range. it’s how the spec has worked since 8.0 (barring the outlier of 9.2.5), and it was clearly a purposeful decision to make it that way.
9.2.5 wasn’t considered unhealthy because it “promoted RSV play.” it was unhealthy because it promoted spamming a builder ability, even when already focus capped, instead of actually doing a rotation. maybe if its damage had been properly tuned it would have been okay… but in that case you also wouldn’t have your anecdotes about it letting you stay at range.
the current tier set isn’t trying to promote ranged play either. it’s trying to make it more rewarding to weave different abilities together more often. you can’t overlook that the 4-piece bonus requires spending focus, aka using melee abilities.
Considering your assessment of my concept, you said it was “entirely different” to the old RSV, despite how I compiled/created it in a way which makes it possible to replicate almost the exact core loop that it used to provide(+ a few passive talents/effects you must select in order to spend all of your points, though, these effects don’t really alter the gameplay) considering that, I’m not convinced by this argument of yours…
During our discussions, I’ve specifically pointed to the act of augmenting arrows/projectiles with secondary effects, such as poison, venom, explosives, or magic. The reason I distinguish between those examples you’ve brought up is because RSV typically has never had a [major] focus on using different types of ammunition/arrows. The focus have always been on what can be done to further enhance the projectiles fired, regardless of what type of projectile/ammo it is.
When I bring it up, it’s always with the intent of focusing on the effects used to augment the projectiles(bullets/arrows) fired. My focus is not on how you use different types of ammo to augment your attacks, but how you use different types of effects to augment your ammo.
I really hope you understand the difference here, because from a fantasy perspective/thematic standpoint, there’s a big difference in how you approach ability design/theming. How you use it to distinguish between core spec fantasies, as an example.
As an example:
You can make use of 10 different arrow types - materials, fletching, tip design, etc., to augment your “attacks”, or better yet, adapt to specific scenarios, depending on what’s required for accuracy or distance to target and more. You can do this without using any form of enhancing effect whatsoever(such as posion, venom, explosive attachments, or magic).
Meanwhile…
You can use all the different types of enhancing/augmenting effects I mentioned above, without using more than a single type of ammunition/arrow.
Again, do you see the difference in how those respective fantasies are approached? Just to make it clear as well, I’m not saying that RSV can’t be based on the idea that you actually do make use of different types of ammo/arrows. My point here, is that the idea of using different types of ammo/arrows is a class fantasy-thing(class-wide = for any ranged weapon-spec) in concept. MM puts the most focus on that part of the fantasy, wheras RSV didn’t. RSV put more focus on the enhancing effects.
See above.
Unless your intent here is to effectively add in abilities and other effects to replicate the core loop/gameplay of old SV, while eliminating the current gameplay and interactions of what MM is now, then no, it wouldn’t be.
Uhm, what? Really?
With skilled weapon handler, here, it’s about someone who focuses on becoming an expert at what can be done with their weapon to shoot farther, have better aim, and train themselves to be quick at reloading/drawing, etc. This part is specifically focusing on the archetype of someone who trains themselves on how to best manage using their ranged weapon(gun, bow, crossbow). I’m not talking weapons in general.
On this forum, it’s not that common…
Again, most discussions on the topic of similarities between MM and RSV, on this forum, they certainly haven’t been held on the basis of visuals/animations. Nearly all of them have been about the actual mechanics and interactions in terms of gameplay.
