My fellow MSV-enthusiasts? Search my post history and find my posts supporting MSV. I’ll wait.
arguing about who started the conversation, while actively continuing said conversation, feels very silly
microsoft will bring life back into this once great game and i cant wait!
Concept wise not the play-style. Using out of the ordinary ammunition is what Survival was in theme. It was the Rambo of Hunters and used unconventional tactics to fight. The first version of was just a mash up of ideas with not a clear idea MSV.
The designers could see that it just being able to use a melee weapon was not a clear identity. Maybe after they looked back over SV they finally got the concept that SV was supposed to be, but they either were too far in the melee idea or just didn’t want to admit they had not actually done the work.
MSV has lost more melee abilities and gained more ranged. This would show they know that Hunters are not designed around melee combat.
I don’t hate spec. I hate the class designers for forcing their vision on players. Range Survival should have never been taken away. Blizzard had tried to creat a melee Hunter back in the first patch of WoW; however, it failed cause Hunters are a range class by design.
A class that is at home in the wilderness and has a loyal companion to help them. Just having your pet and a spear is a primal concept. Yet, if they play-style doesn’t fit with the core of a class then you don’t force it in cause you like want it.
You either create another class that creates your vision or offer it as another way to play a spec. Killing off one for the other is just causing alienating. Some will like the new design, but then you have a huge division of those that want their spec back.
Adam Kugler and Travis M. Day should have taken a step back and thought what would they gain from changing Survival Hunters to a melee spec, and think about what they are going to loose by creating a spec that no one had ask for.
Blizz could’ve added a Tinker class that wore mail and had a mechanical pet. I can imagine it would use bombs and melee tactics but could run out if things got dicey.
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wildly egotistical to assume nobody asked for a melee hunter spec just because you personally disagree with it
What’s with the past tense? All of that literally applies right now 
What melee abilities has it lost?
Sure, and the BfA onwards version has a very clear identity and class fantasy. Not sure why you bring up legion SV being a noted mess when plenty of hunter specs have been a mess in the past and present (current MM)
There’s people who want Survival to be a healthier spec or others who want it to be a Tank spec. So, then Survival should be redesigned again to make a small group happy?
Cause a individual asked for melee Survival does not mean that it was a popular enough to erase another spec that had a larger base of players.
Past tense cause I am talking about Ranger Survival. Melee Survival is Guerrilla warfare.
Lacerate, but feels more empty with only Raptor Strike.
“Travis: It was another one that was missing its niche. It’s kind of like Marksman except more traps? Or different arrows? So it was kind of missing that “what is the core fantasy?””
The class designers argued that Survival need to change cause it lacked a core, yet they just create a mess out if the redesign that still didn’t have a core fantasy.
They had to go back to Range Survival core concept, and just keep it melee.
Blizzard had tried to creat a melee Hunter back in Vanilla, but scrap it early cause Hunters were not designed around melee combat. Then after completing removing all melee abilities that Hunters used in MoP they decided that Survial Hunter’s roots were in melee combat. Even though it didn’t fit into Hunter’s play-style they tried to force it to.
Survival has a large hole that other melee classes have filled in. They lack the defensive capabilities of some, and can continue to fight with out having to completely shut down to survive.
Theses are some of the issues with changing Survival Hunters to melee, and needs to be addressed to bring it up to other melee classes.
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Completely irrelevant, you said nobody ever asked for SV to be Melee, which is just not true.
An extremely weak DoT that you more or less ignored at high levels of play? You’re right though, we did lose it. Thankfully it didn’t impact gameplay at all.
It’s not a mess though? It also has a core fantasy. I’m a bit confused why you brought this part up?
And have more defensive capabilities than others. Isn’t that wild? Just like MM/BM have worse defensives than some ranged specs and better defensives than other ranged specs.
Particularly around melee specialists. In Classic I lost to a hance shammy and ret paladin in Searing Gorge because I couldn’t get out of melee as well, but when I opened up at about 40 yds I won. Even when I’m MM/SV(I had more talent pts in HvW(Hunter vs. Wild)), I did way better damage at range. As in I SMOKED them before they got within 5 yds.
Not to mention that SV had powerful traps and improvised weapons I haven’t gotten yet in my 50’s on Classic, not to mention trap launcher. Now, I have used Mongoose/Raptor macros but both a melee shaman and pally handed my butt to me.
So even my recent Classic Wrath PvP experience proves that RSV is the way to go. Obviously you spec for AShot in the MM tree which isn’t hard to get.
In hindsight we had traps pruned as well as Aspects. Shoot, a LOT of useful stuff got pruned. I was upset about that for the longest time regarding Legion changes. It really devastated all Hunters across the board. Blizzard really should have taken the time to do a true RSV rework back then for Leg, but instead they walked it back ever so slowly.
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So then if Blizzard wanted to make Survival Hunters a Tank spec next expansion that’s would be considered fine cause some one asked for that.
If Blizzard brought it up to be stronger than it be one more melee option. What would Survival loose by have more melee abilities?
Itvtook them two expansions to get to Survival’s core fantasy. One they had when it was avranged spec.
Which? The ability to kite? That’s is due to Survival not being able to stand toe to toe with other melee specs.
That’s neither here nor there. You said “Nobody asked for this” when it’s simply not true.
I mean, it’s a dot you press once every 12/15 seconds, just like Serpent Sting. It doesn’t really change the gameplay at all nor is it a “melee” fantasy ability. Especially since Viper’s Venom effectively does the same exact thing.
Look at how many expansion it’s taken them for MM. Maybe 11.0 will fare better for the RDPS spec.
They seemed to disagree. Other players seem to disagree as well. It wasn’t exactly an exotic opinion to say BM/MM/RSV all looked very samey.
No? Exhilaration is an incredibly short CD for a very large heal, Rejuv Winds gives 8% max HP all the time, you have the option to use 10% leech OR have more HP and an extra defensive, as well as SotF and Turtle.
Look at something like Shaman where your options are Astral Shift and a 5 minute Earth Ele
That being said, I’m more than happy enough to get defensive buffs to the class.
I think we need more HEALERS, yeah? That’s a most delicious irony, considering people who ask for things are asking for themselves and not even trying to understand what’s best for the game and its community.
Careful. If we want SV to be braindead easy, we should pump the brakes on adding more stuff for them to think about.
Imagine having to wait that long. We could have played a different MMO or other genre of video games having yeeted post-Leg SV.
Rogues, Druids, Monks, and DHs already have kiting tactics. These are very speedy meleers that get around very well, far better than the platewearers.
I remember when I argued that OL’s grappling hook was superior to SV’s harpoon. An OL rogue gets there better, with decent range capability to boot, and all the plethora of rogue and OL utility.
SV is better described as a melee supporter. It didn’t have the superior mobility of leatherwearers and superior tankability of platewearers to hold its own.
Was there a post that someone asked for Survival to be a melee spec? I know people ask “what if Hunters had a melee spec” but not one demanding for it.
Then why not have it as an optional talent? It be a melee option over more range options.
They made Survival melee cause they thought that was all it needed to be unique. Then they went back to the drawing board for BfA after it didn’t get the crowds.
Too many cooldowns for survival. All that is needed is to force Survival to use up it defensive abilities.
If we put Hunters side by side with other classes, we don’t look really that bad, HOWEVER, most of other class has some sort of passive sustenance, a very short cd small defensive cd, with damage reduction longer cd, and still able to attack, for us, for hunter, we got one dmg reduction long cd that also reduce our overall damage, a long damage reduction CD in Survival of the Fittest where the CD doesnt scale as well with the damage reduction, and no passive sustenance for ourself.
Leech was too good and was reduced by 25%. With Turtle they either make it a max 2min cd, or reduceable by focus spend, extra charge, or at very least, let us be able to attack while using it.
I can guarantee you that there was at least 1 person out of the millions that played wow between 2004 and 2016 that someone demanded SV be melee.
Even so, right now, here I am saying it should stay melee so your entire point with this discussion is quite silly.
Why does this matter? Should BM / MM talents have a minimum range requirement so people don’t use them in melee range? Bring back the dead zone?
And then it stayed the same identity from BfA onwards, so sounds like that was a solid decision.
Oh, you mean Spirit Bond? Or Predator’s Thirst?
Leech rating was nerf. Flat Leech % from things like passive talents or bonuses (Predator’s Thirst) was not nerfed.
Oh, like Exhiliration?
SotF?
We also have increased max health through Rejuv Winds and Fortitude of the Bear.
I never said it should go back to Range Survival. My discussion is that it needed more work to be on par with other melee specs.
I want a melee option for BM. Would fit with the fantasy of being a kindred spirit with the wild beasts.
I still liked Legion’s version of SV for how active it was.
Are you considering that you should stack Mastery?
Oh that 10% really hepls through AoE, bleeds, poisons all stacked up.
Other classes can just spam heal with out a cooldown.
Small damage buff with long cooldown.
Survival needs stronger defense or shorter cooldown time on those defense abilities.
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Agree, would be cool
This current version is still incredibly active, if not more so. If you have a lot of downtime you aren’t playing it correctly.
No, I’m saying that you said there’s no passive sustenance when the spec has 2, which is a lot more than other melee DPS.
Yes 10% free passive Leech is great to have for extended boss fights or large AoE encounters.
Hybrid DPS can spam heals a few times before they run out of mana.
It the spamming of just the few abilities. Like I said I would want Lacerate just to break up the rotation.
Spirit Bond is terrible cause it’s attached to Mastery. Survival Hunter should have a much stronger form of leech versus the two specs.
Combined with other defense it can keep you up. However, it a weak heal through constant damage.
Hunters use to have mana. A heal that used focus would be helpful.
You mean like every single DPS spec in the entire game now?
Would pressing Lacerate every 15 seconds break up the primary gameplay loop of Focus management with MB/KC and managing your WFB CD? If so, you can press serpent sting every 12 seconds for the same “break up” of the rotation
It does Beast Mastery Hunters gain very low benefit from Leech because their pets do the majority of their damage. MM gains less benefit from Ferocity Pets because they’re incentivized to not use a pet at all.
You were talking specifically about classes with passive sustenance. 10% leech is a large amount of passive sustenance. Go ahead and list some specs you feel that have stronger passive healing.
This is a cooked take. We are not a hybrid DPS/Healer like a Shaman, Druid, or Paladin.
Yeah it would.
I would suggest that Survival heals from DoTs. The more you have up the faster health would regenerate.
Compared to nearly every other class’s ability to self heal through talents (Arms Second Wind), heal spells (Druids, Monks, Paladins, Priests, Rogues, and Shamans), and on-hit healing (Death Knights, Demon Hunters, Warlocks, and Warriors) - with mage being the only other class with true healing issues that are partially resolved with short cooldown shields, slows, blinks, and the fact that they are ranged/out of harm’s way.
What Ret, Feral, and Enhancement? Do they heal and dps at same time?
Make Mending Bandage a baked in ability or to go with Survival let them conjure cooked meat.
Okay, press Serpent Sting manually every 12 seconds. Your problem has been solved.
You mean, like you do from Leech?
Doesn’t function if you’ve taken damage
You said “passive sustenance” not “active healing spells”
You mean like the Leech we have?