Those being?
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Sure as it seems you can’t read between the lines…
All of the main characters in wow have had periods where there actions have some aspect of derived villainy or actions which cause the storyline to go down a certain direction and Jaina is NO different.
I suggest you go read up on her full history as it will highlight the actions which are seen at the time to be a very much morally questionable action or just plain atrocity
So two key ones but there is others dotted through out her history in Wow
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the Bombing of Theramore
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Using the Focusing Iris with a Mana Bomb to murder everyone inside Orgrimmar
What a coincidence the second one is…while she didn’t burn down Orgrimmar she would have erased it from existence all based on her emotional state and a whim there was no thought about getting innocent people out of the city it was just a case of kill them all regardless… So who exactly is the callous one out of the two based on that… Sylvanus is calculated but she did try to construct a way to ensure that majority of the NE’s would survive etc. Jaina just didn’t care she wanted them all dead and went about doing it…
So you see now my point Jaina in terms of actions and artrocities she has committed by herself makes Sylvanus look like a saint in comparison…
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Sylvanas did nothing wrong to redeem herself.
Two factions are in war. You don’t give away hugs and candies to your enemies in war, you murder them. And she did just that.
In war, if you don’t murder your enemy, they will murder you.
It’s war
They are Enemies.
GET IT YET?
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When was this stated and why you would even believe it with how Blizzard lied about BfA being Mists 2.0.
Sylvanas has sought war every step of her undead existence even when the Alliance wants peace above all else. If we are in this mess it’s because of her ao if she wants war so bad then she’ll have to face the consequences of that when we finally come to get her head.
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And here is another idea for the Ultimate game the Sylvanus has been playing all along:
What if Sylvanus’s ultimate goal is not to become to the Lich King at all and actually remove the concept that there always must be a Lich King to control the threat of the Scourge? She might use Xal’atath and another titan device that is linked to the Shadowlands that she has discovered and only Nathanos’s mission that he is on with the Blade is actually going and using this hidden device and the Blade while everyone else if focused on the Eternal Palace.
She uses the Nathanos to extract all the Souls of mindless undead that is in the Shadowlands and store them within essentially empowering Xal’atath all the while she has been lying to Xal’atath and all of us about her true plan and she will use the empowered Xal’atath to kill the Lich King by syphoning all three souls that comprise what we understand is or could be the Lich King (Bolvar, Kel’thuzzad and Nerzul) in to the dagger and imprisoning them in the same way the Natholaya was trapped by N’Zoth in the dagger.
N’Zoth believe that Sylvanus’s is being manipulated by him and a pawn in his game ultimately so much of her actions may have been the facade of maintaining that she was doing his bidding in some way and progressing the story for his release. Which is definitely something that we can see she is directly aligned with. N’Zoth wants the Lich king gone so that when he emerges he can take all the mindless undead and have them possessed by his own Black Empire effectively creating a massive armory with very little effort on his part that will do his bidding in Azeroth.
However, this is where I think Sylvanus’s ultimate plan will unfold, she sent Nathonas to do the syphoning as he immune to whispers etc. but also this likely blocks the ability of the old god to read in to his mind as well. So he will have no idea of who or what the souls are that are being used to empower Xal’atath. N’Zoth only needs the dagger empoowered enough so it is strong enough to form the prison for the three empowered Lich King Identities. So by pulling souls from the Shadowlands it will Empower Xal’atath enough to ensure it will have this power and be capable of performing the trap itself.
So what does Sylvanus want with the souls from the Shadowlands I think she will raise them all in the Mindless Scourge forming the new Forsaken who are undead but more like Calia for example. This will obviously then make N’Zoth aware that she was playing him all along unlike the way Azshara thought she could manipulate N’Zoth, Sylvanus truly outwitted him and actually achieved her ultimate goal of destroying the threat of the Scourge and the Lich King for all of Azeroth.
Now one last thing there is a line from the Whispers that says something about and the third death shall herald out coming. Now if this is N’Zoth planning things based on him factoring in what he is supposedly doing with Sylvanus he could actually be meaning the 3 Souls that are tied to the Lich King as each soul being syphoned in to Xal’atath would in essence be a death and when all three are done; the old gods seem to perceive that they will be able to then use the Scourge army to become the Black Empire so heralding their return to Azeroth? Now by Sylvanus double crossing N’Zoth like this he knew she was dangerous via the whispers that we see Alleria receiving from the Void about Sylvanus but he believes he can use her like he used Azshara and ultimately he is outwitted by her.
Likely this will cause N’Zoth to lash out at Sylvanus in some way but the empowered blade of Xal’atath with the essences of the Lich King trapped inside will protect her but will have some consequence as a side effect which is her sacrifice that she knows she must make. Could the bargain she made with Helia actually be to ensure that Helia prevents N’Zoth from pulling her in to the Void like Azshara and takes her to Hellheim where N’Zoth can’t reach her as part of this ultimate plan. Helia would agree as she understands how the removal of the Lich King and the ressurection of all of the Mindless Scourge would be a huge benefit to the future of Azeroth. It would also please her that they both effectively played N’Zoth and completely outwitted and undermined his grab plans between the two of them unknown to anyone else…
Let me stop you there. I’m the biggest horde apologist out there, but if Sylvanas is still warchief at the end of this expansion…
Well i won’t do anything drastic like quit, but i’ll certainly not be able to take the story seriously ever again. And if Jaina, Thrall, and Baine forgive her, I may write a sternly worded post.
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You understand it was Garrosh, not Jaina that bombed theramore… right?
She… didn’t actually do that though. Thrall made her come to her senses. It was a tidal wave made of elementals, btw, not a manabomb. Why would you not at least point to something she actually did, like the purge of Dalaran?
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I am positive that Sylvanus end game will result in her not being Warchief but who will replace her I don’t really have an opinion on that at the moment.
Inversely Horde players are over having their Leaders (corrupted) as part of the storyline and having to kill them in the same way the Alliance have to kill them.
This is the bane of hordes plot lines and it was Blizzard who did mention that were not going to do a Garrosh 3.0 type thing with her. In addition to that they referenced that when we truly understand the full spectrum of what she has been doing all along it will make Garrosh’s look like a complete novice. So she definitely has some very grand world changing scheme she is doing is that is the line they are using at Blizzcon
She’ll have to work hard at that one. Garrosh actually won some battles after his initial victory at Theramore. Sylvanas hasn’t yet.
Ah I know she didn’t actually use the Focusing Iris though I pointed it out as it has one clear aspect to it.
She is acting emotionally and irrationally and is hell bent on the destruction of all that dwell in Orgrimmar. However, who is able to get through to her and essentially stop her from taking actions purely based on emotions making them irrational… Horde…not Alliance it’s the Horde who talk her down and prevent it.
So the Horde prevented the outcome by talking her down in terms of Sylvanus the Alliance didn’t really put in the same level of effort to prevent the events that happened in Teldrassil in the same furor and compassion for a peaceful outcome?
Additionally it was Sylvanus who was attempting a way to prevent loss of lives first and Alliance went and decided to sabotage her plans by attacking in the way they did. This put her on the course she finished on purely because she had no other way to ensure the desired outcome that was needed to move and guide us on the path she was planning all along.
Strictly speaking, was Thrall still a horde character at that point? I thought he had gone neutral by then.
Anduin Wrynn literally tried to create a reconciliation with the forsaken at Arathi. Sylvanas responded by slaughtering her own people because she was freaked out by a somehow-still-alive Calia Menethil. Either way, I’d say Anduin tried pretty hard.
I mean I think she has a plan that she thinks benefits all of Azeroth too. I posted a thread about it. I just don’t think she’s going about it in the right way. Obviously. Genocide isn’t the answer when trying to save lives.
Wow. that’s a sentence I never thought i’d write.
This was another idea I had which I posted above but this does align to the ultimate underlying plan that had all of us thinking something else all to ensure she was able make N’Zoth think she was playing his game and not her own.
So Sylvanus really is not out to kill alliance she is out to remove a threat completely from Azeroth and redeem herself by avenging the deaths of her kin by ultimately killing and removing all traces of the Lich King and his control from Azeroth but also prevent the risk that the uncontrolled legions of the scourge become when you do not have a lich king to control them…
2 Key world changing things in one swift action…if this is the course it would be pretty cool plot twist and storyline for what she has been doing all along.
I’m confused, this was Garrosh and the Horde?
You want to know what the difference between Sylvanas and Jaina is? Jaina was able to be talked down, she didn’t go through with it because she’s not a monster.
Lol no. Sylvanas committed genocide against a race, whatever plans she had are irrelevant and she is not a saint.
Uh huh. The burning tree and smouldering corpses of civilians beg to differ.
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First of all op, great well though out and written thread. I love the theory behind it.
Do you remeber that one QnA (sorry I cant really find it at the mommet). Where a question was asked along the lines of when will the alliance get vengence for teldrassil? The answer given was they already did (night warrior), and we may of overdone it with reguards to the war of thorns.
This could be what he is refering to. And I agree they did over done it with reguards to the war of thorns.
Allys dont feels as if they have not gotten justice
Horde dont feel that they’ve been redeemed(horde narrative also rekt btw).
If they above theory happens.
So maybe not in the eyes of the players she will be redeemed, but in the eyes of characters she would be. Where the overdone part of the answer is that they wanted her to also be redeemed in the eyes of the players (which is why they stated they over did it).
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As well written as this topic is … long story short Sylvanas cannot be validated in her actions, because to do so would invalidate everyone opposed to her. I cannot think of a more effective way of FINALLY putting the last nail in the coffin of the WC3 Horde Faction fantasy than Sylvie being proven right in the end (and it doesn’t matter how much Blizz tries to throw the surviving WC3 legends down our throats for lip-service; dead is dead).
Sacrificing that to “redeem” a character who never once in the entire history of her character represented the Horde as a group very well (often deliberately) … is just not worth it in my mind. Hell, she barely represents her own Forsaken very well! I joined the HORDE faction, I did not join the SYLVIE faction (no matter how much some of her fans would prefer that be the case).
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I think you don’t fully comprehend the actual realization that Sylvanus had in the event’s that transpired at Icecrown and her rebirth with her new Valkyr Sisters at her side.
She understood that all Undead when they die end up in a place of Pure Darkness and is a path that she doesn’t want for herself of course but also for any of the Undead as a whole.
She actually realises through the events that have followed that rebirth things aren’t actually what we have all been made to believe. As she is guided by her Valkyr sisters she perceives much more of what has been happening all along.
There is a much larger faction war going on and while we unknowingly may have either helped one side in one instance of events but then played a part in assisting the other side as well…
So what is the key thing around death and where various races supposedly end up. What she knows now is that ALL UNDEAD END UP IN THE INFINITE VOID and so are somehow effectively tied to it at a much deeper level that we really fully understand. This is also likely why undead forsaken specifically are completely immune to the whispers of N’Zoth. If they are actually by the nature of their souls part of the void then it would explain their actual resistance to his whispers.
N’Zoth doesn’t like the Forsaken as they because they have a soul which he can’t corrupt the same can’t be said for the mindless forsaken controlled by the Lich King these have no souls and can therefore be corrupted by N’Zoth. There souls are likely already within the void itself trapped for all eternity so to speak. Frostmourne would then be somehow bound to the void through Nerzul so all the souls are pulled in to the Infinite Void and the Body is left behind as merely a puppet which can be controlled provided you have the power to bend the will of others.
Now with that said if Sylvanus knows all this why would be so hard to understand her goal is to actually save all of the Forsaken from this aspect of Death and the horror that is the infinite void. This is why we see her so interested in Hellia and Hellhiem, the Shadowlands etc. she is working out what course of actions leads to the souls be pulled to that locations and not the Void.
With the Alleria accepting the void it’s very important to also take not of Sylvanus’s reaction she is actually worried and concerned for Alleria because from her perspective the void is not what Alleria perceives it as whatsoever it’s horrors are much much worse to her.
Why did Sylvanus have the Lantern in the scene with Hellia she was making a bargain we know this but did that lantern contain some very special souls that Hellia gave to her for a very specific reason?
What if Sylvanus was actually making a bargain to obtain souls of warriors of the Light specifically which would give her access to the powers of Light i.e the power that is in essence the opposing faction to the Darkness.
So what is the souls she seeks well it’s actually the souls of the Val’kyr who reside in Hellhiem. In this way she transitions from her own sister bond with the Valkyr who are Void based to ones who will be Lightforge based… This then allows her to have access to the concept of CLEANSING and REBIRTH.
This is effectively the key thing to take in she TRANSITIONS FROM THE DARK TO THE LIGHT or from the Void to the Lightforged in the same way that we see the Naaru which has been a key concept if this is the case then are the Naaru actually really good or is it actually something about this ability to be both Darkness and Light a key factor in what is to come and Sylvanus is the actual catalyst for Azeroth that kickstarts it all with her actions we are yet to see.
If she indeed does become essentially a Lighttouched Banshee and she raises in the same way the LK did the Valkyr to serve her but in this case she raises them with the touch of light instead. This new sisters reborn of the light will likely have a very different form of raising the dead and even the ability to likely cleanse corruption etc.
So was her reaction when she saw Callia as the lightouched undead more about the realisation that firstly her actual path was one which was achievable but also that she realised that someone had actually created an Undead tied to the light and this could be a risk to her grand plan if the existence of Callia caused events to not go to her well constructed end game that has been unfolding ever since her fall at Icecrown.
rexxar, is that you?
i mean, what do you mean with atrocities to her own faction?
okay so sylvanas sending “her troops” to nazjatar to be captured and tortured,and sacrificed by the naga isn’t some sort of atrocity right?
Alright lets compare “artrocities”
-attempting genocide in a direct response to her city being nuked.
-responsible for the deaths of some civillians during the purge at the hands of the silver covenant after being betrayed by the sunreavers.
-cold blood murdered of humans in lordaeron
-smirks as a woman gets melted witht blight
-invade a country and throws blight to a city because the defenders were resisting too much
-invade another country and kill countless innocents guards and civilians with fire
-kill her own troops with blight
-sends troops to literally kill childs and their parents in front of them and these troops torture for fun
-having deathcamps of captured nelfs in darkshore.
-raise and torture a corpse in the hopes of turn him into a weapon, just like arthas.
and of course she killing her own people in arathi.
and i am sure that i am mising some.
There is no redemption.
Do you have a quote on this?
blizzard said many things, but giving past record, i wouln’t trust too much in them, like the last time they said that gilnean heritage will be at 8.2.5 
and of course the compilation of their lies.
i hear that they said that they won’t be doing a garrosh 2.0 but never that “sylvanas redeeming herself” only that “she will not die yet”.