It takes no effort to put a raid group together.
The problem is: You want to be carried through said content.
Everything is effortless to people who see others doing the content they can’t do.
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Notice he posted on a classic character lol.
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I think it’s comparing guild raiding to pug mythic+ which to me is an invalid comparison.
A consistent group is a massive benefit for both raiding and mythic+.
It should be guild raiding to guild mythic+ or pug raiding to pug mythic+.
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Boon, icon, 424 tier, and eranog ring all drop from raid and have no equal. Tell me how bad it is to get the best stuff in a game where quality and not quantity of loot matters the most.
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Artificial difficulty != challenge. It equals poor system management. The final gear giving mythic+ should be the final nudge of difficulty, and not because of 10 levels of gear progress. But because it adds the final affix.
That’s not how it works and you’re not open to that idea, so let’s agree to disagree.
I will not, however, concede that coordinating 5 people is harder than coordinating 20 people.
Guild raiding to guild m+ is even more in favour of M+, purely based on spammability. I don’t think a lot of you realise just how little raid gear drops. We’ve had 0 council trinkets drop, 1 grief torch, no hunter bows etc etc
Everyone capable in the raid is mostly geared in better than heroic loot from M+.
Apparently, yet I got both those rings from the great vault and not a raid drop. Don’t get 424 tier from heroic either, so that’s pretty irrelevent. All my tier is converted M+ gear.
No icon from the raid or vault for me. Never had one drop.
Actually I think I got one of the rings as a quest reward from the weekly quest thing.
I find scripted content with repeated people incredibly easy. It becomes a repeat-until-success story 
Idk. Pugging 2400 and having Jimmy-Area52 turbo dunk your key every 35 minutes because someone ego checked him for making mistakes, but there’s no actual punishment for him doing this every day to every key sucks. So long as you’re actively making changes to improve what caused failure and not just repeating it over and over… pretty easy.
I’ll give you maybe Broodkeeper as well. Brood kinda sucked. Rest of the zone was a piñata though.
What? You can run 2/4/14 in a guild run and feed potentially 4 drops per boss to a new member/rerolled alt for guild needs. Then you can do that in heroic… and then again in Mythic. You can walk in with Communal gear on, die at every fight, walk out with more pieces than you can feasibly equip plus a guaranteed 405 upgrade for lariat. That’s 1-33 items from normal, 32 items from heroic, and let’s say you can only do half of mythic in carry - so 16 from mythic.
Do you have any idea how long it would take you to get 81 items from Mythic+? That’s a minimum of 81 runs giving items 385/395/405/411/420+. 421 is a +20 vault reward, so you’re looking at weeks for just later raid pieces.
That’s why guilds selling raid carries with loot funnel is so successful. The amount of items available that you can feed off is colossal.
Not really a lot of cross server mythic pugging going on due to… it’s impossible, but Illidan, Area52, and Mal’Ganis both have notable pugs clearing 2-5/8 weekly.
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Even if the 5 player content is harder?
Yes organizing 20 people is more tedious than 5.
But the content that you are grouping for isn’t.
Affix has nothing to do with the gear, it just kicks in at +10.
You can continue to get much better gear up until +20 I believe?
So there’s still incentive to push those very high keys.
Yeah, if you have 20 people you could probably do a few bosses on mythic too.
Most heroic guilds are heroic because they want to, or can only, run with <20 people.
I always thought it weird and lazy to rehash 5man dungeons as end game content. But I don’t bother with PVE so it doesn’t really matter to me.
“I don’t want to raid Mythic, therefore Blizzard should nerf M+ rewards to equal easier heroic content.”
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You can’t place voluntary self restrictions on one side of the content but not the other… If you’re saying that, you could just as easily say nobody wants to run keys past +16 because they’re too hard. +16 gives 418 stones, but does not give enough rating to hit 2400 for 415 upgrades – or 420+ ilvl items from vault.
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I’m not gonna lie OP, I’m not reading all of that. My reply to the header is this:
If raiding were fun and had mass appeal M+ wouldn’t be capable of “hurting” it. You should be more concerned with why raiding isn’t fun enough to keep participation up on its own merit.
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You’re doing the usual M+ player REEE when people argue about your loot. But if you actually wiped the tears of rage from your eyes, you’d realise what I’m saying is that difficulty and effort should equal reward, and at the moment M+ is too good comparatively.
ie, at the very least it needs to stop awarding vault slots for failing to time a run.
Personally what I think affected raiding is the raiding itself. They are increasingly made to be unnecessarily overcomplicated. I am not asking for brain-dead simple like classic raiding but mannnn…Raz fight requires the mental agility, spatial awareness, finger-eye coordination, hearing perfection of a yet to be discovered super organism. And we need at least ten of those in a raid.
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Yeah, this is absolutely not what you’re saying.
“I don’t like mythic+ therefore neither should anybody else” is the vibe I’m getting it.
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There is some truth to this. I don’t really have an issue with raiding being complex and difficult - but by doing this while offering a far easier and more lucrative gearing method (ie M+) it kills the motivation to farm the raids when you can just get better for less effort by doing m+.
Like, who even cares about rekilling raz once you’ve killed her once now?
False. Difficulty wise, clearing heroic VOTI in a guild once a week is incredibly easy compared to pugging to full 415 in M+.
I’m not here for the faux outrage/goofy comments like “tears of rage”. I’ve done both. It’s much easier to gear to a high-median in VOTI than it is in M+. M+ just allows player agency to do it on their terms, on their time, and prioritize what they want to provided they’re willing to spend the time to do it.
You’re not saying that, though. You’re saying that “well, some guilds don’t want to do mythic raiding they like heroic raiding or don’t have 20 people” - which is fine. But you can’t set self-imposed restrictions on one side but not the other. That’s unfair, unequal, and bias.
More over, I’ll say that nearly every time I have a full heroic geared person invited to a +20 key they’re there for a weekly box and are easily our worst person/wiping/no idea how to do the zone or mechanics/etc.
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I mean, that’s not what I think at all but I can’t really help that. My thread that’s still kicking around from 2018 sums up my feelings (read the key bit where I say I don’t want it removed, most people miss that in their REEEE fit): https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/bring-back-5mans/56639
If they kill M+ this game is toast. M+ is the only thing propping the game up anymore. Raiding as a whole has been dying for a long time. Gen Z does not care about raiding. Older people who are moving on with their lives are propping raiding up. Gen Z cares a lot more about grab-and-go gaming and activities. It’s a huge reason why mobile gaming is obliterating everything else right now.
They can appeal to raiders at their own peril.
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