idk I’d argue they’re the same. 16s are not hard, nor is heroic raid.
if you’re conflating 16s to mythic raid, i’d suggest to pick your pugs more wisely.
yep, and they’re not that dumb. they know m+ is wildly popular
they can - and should - appeal to both groups.
You keep saying that, but it’s simply not true in my experience. Nearly every tier since M+ has been out, 3/4 of our raid (the ones who do m+ including myself because I don’t want to handicap us) are substantially ahead of the remainder of the raid in ilvl. Initially due to end of run chest loot, and then as the season goes on due to far better items from the vault.
You know what I did at the start of VOTI to get my ilvl (and dps) up? Spam M+ for drops.
It really isn’t. High end M+ is under rewarding. Raiders should have tearstained cheeks because high end M+ players should have BIS loot better than what Mythic raiders who aren’t CE have, except they don’t. There is no eranog ring, hunter bow, 424, etc from M+ to make raiders jealous.
I’d have thought it’s the opposite. Older people don’t usually have time to revolve their real life responsibilities to commit to a raiding schedule.
Louder for the alts in the BACK.
WoW raiding is outdated, same exact system for 15 years, they need to spice up raiding in order to bring back that appeal we all used to get hyped about.
M+ is just so easily accessible and just more time friendly, overall its just a very good feature, which highlights the flaws of WoW raiding imo.
Being honest, until you get raiders threatening to quit because Mythic + players have their BIS and they don’t, and I mean not just one good trinket and plate pants, I mean multiple pieces of BIS, your complaint is invalid.
I dont care about high end M+ getting the same as mythic raz loot. If you can time a key that’s hard enough to be comparable (25? something over 20 anyway) then you can have all the exclusive loot you like. Give M+ their own super special rings and trinkets that only drop at that level. Don’t mind at all.
My issue is how M+ affects loot in the mid tier, by being too easy and good relatively.
I understand, but to that I say this.
If it’s so easy why are people failing so much?
It’s so easy, there’s damn near 50 threads talking about “time to remove m+”…
It clearly isn’t easy.
Let people have their loot that they worked for lol.
This is being addressed somewhat in the next patch anyways. Heroic raid gear will upgrade to the same level as EOD gear from M+.
I honestly couldn’t really be bothered with that. I just want M+ to have top end rewards worth striving for. 10.0 mostly nailed it on that front, with some minor exceptions that can be overlooked.
I’m referencing this to the guy who is saying they’re voluntarily not clearing mythic raiding. Context matters. So does the rest of what I said: +16’s will give you equal gear to VOTI Heroic, but not enough to upgrade to 415 because +16’s wont give 2400. +23’s are harder than any mythic boss in VOTI atm. Rasz mythic requires 60k hps. Hyrja +21 requires 170k hps sustained.
You kinda read one line, replied to it, and didn’t read the rest. 
So… the people investing more time into the game are advanced in ilvl over the people who are voluntarily not? Here’s a suggestion: Cut the people who can’t be bothered making themselves ready for raiding. M+ allows you to target your weak pieces, grind to upgrade, and advance. I already said this. VOTI is a shotgun of gear. M+ fills in the gaps.
Know what I did at the start of VOTI? Grinded 2.2k RSS so I could get upgrades for free well beyond anyone was getting via M+ or normal VOTI for filler pieces to do heroic/mythic with.
The best part? Still provides more genuine discussion than the average thread on these forums 
Completely disagree… Raid. M+, and PvP are Blizzard’s defined end-game pillars of content and the rewards from each distinct path should be on par with each other. There should be no “pinnacle” among these 3 pillars, each should offer a different choice to get to equivalent end-game gear levels.
M+, with its current valor system allowing a +2 1/13 drop to be fully upgraded to 13/13 is imbalanced, resulting in M+ gearing being easier than Raid. However, Blizz has already addressed that issue with the new gearing upgrade system in 10.1 and with those “very rare” and very powerful items that only drop from Raid (although I think they should be same drop rate as other Raid loot; unusually low drop rates just exacerbate the already bad feel of RNG loot).
They still need to fix: 1) Loot options and 2) improve class/spec balance. Group Loot should be removed across the board. Add the option for Master Loot for 100% guild groups. Otherwise it’s Personal Loot. Throughput should be +/- 2.5% among all classes/specs, with utility being the only significant difference among them. The gap between best & worst should be <5%, so players don’t feel they have to play FOTM to increase their chance of getting invited to M+ or holding their Raid spot.
As i said, its supposed to go off bosses you beat so the ilvl should match the 2 you beat. idk why its going up to 424 of the normal boss being defeated… which is why i thought it was bug.
It’s easy (relatively) for me, someone who does KSM and AoTC only. That’s how I judge it, considering i’m just an average player.
Obviously people have different skill levels and not everyone will be able to clear heroics or 10 keys. But the people who struggle in normal or heroic clear can still complete lower keys fine, and get better gear.
I don’t and have never had an issue with that, and If blizzard want to reward the very top end of m+ go right ahead. My only issue is the effect that M+ has had on heroic and normal raids, relative to the equivalent difficult in equivalent key levels. And I base that on the effect and impact it’s had on my own raid group, which has been around in some form forever.
And yes, the current changes in season 2 look to go quite a way to helping.
I’m still not sure why you are comparing guild raider to pug keys.
Why not compare pug raiding to pug keys or guid raiding to guild keys?
In fairness, 10.1 is murdering PvP in it’s tracks. Changing 20 years of established protocols like kick silence durations, stun durations, etc. Not to mention things like pvp talents being given as embellishments for free to all caster dps, repeated melee nerfs, and unviability – all heavily favoring casters. That pillar will crumble in 10.1 unless they go “Woah, these changes were terrible. Let’s not do any of this.”
Every time casters dominate the meta WoW pvp sees record low attendance. That section of the game borderline curls over and dies.
Sure, my alt rogue at 414 cleared VOTI heroic last night in a pug no wipes under 2 hours. Taking that same character into +18 content – which would be advancement for them via key progress – at 2300 rating – saw two consecutive hours of declined invites. Alternatively, doing 10 +16’s would take a minimum of 200 minutes in the fastest zone to get a 418 upgrade piece - That’s assuming I had an endless amount of SMBG or TOJS keys to run, got instantly approved, grouped, and zoned in. You’re looking at more realistically 500~ minutes… inb4 “JuzT MAEk UR oWnNN KEEEzzyz”
I get ksm and aotc too, but just because I did it does not mean its easy.
There was many wipes, many failures, much yelling, not enough caffeine.
Maybe im just bad 
Because raid tier sets are defined item levels, not variable item levels like mythic+, based on which boss drops them.
Sennerath tier is 415
Kurig/Dath tier is 421
Brood/Raz tier is 424
There is no way in the raid to get 418 tier, or to get say a 415 tier helmet since the helmet only drops from Raz which is 424.
That’s why it works out that way.
Then change it.
If it’s that easy, what’s the problem?
If anything, easy access to gear should be helping and encouraging players to start to raids, not killing them.
It’s not like there isn’t plenty of time between raids to hop in to a mythic or two. It’s not a case of having to choose one or the other. Just sounds like some feeble rationalisation for why raids aren’t as appealing anymore, or some rationale for you not wanting to have to do any mythics.
The only thing killing raids is the amount of effort required for something that isn’t worth the hassle to a lot of people. And I’m not talking about gear either when I say not worth the hassle…