Because they have a harder time getting carried in M+ than raid.
3 Likes
Exactly, its been the same since classic.
It needs a new twist, they need to do something to raids to make it more enticing and approachable.
the way m+ is very approachable and time friendly.
Maybe more loot should drop? (since everyone is covered in 415 m+ gear anyways).
M+ Didnât hurt raiding, m+ is just a much better feature.
2 Likes
Gonna need to explain this logic to me. Nokia brickphones have been around a lot longer than smartphones, are they not outdated?
4 Likes
Donât do this! 
I still donât understand the point of anything Mythic+ past 10. Youâve seen all the mechanics, experienced all of the possible combinations, yet it continues to grow.
Anything beyond 10 is a gear grind. There are some downs along the way but itâs all inflation. Just inflation.
Even if we fixed the inflation, I can only see Mythic+ as an outlet into Heroic raiding. Nothing else makes sense. 5 man vs 20 man. Which is harder? Clearly the latter regardless of how hard Mythic+ can be.
We should also do away with either Heroic dungeons or Mythic 0 dungeons. We donât need two redundant gear grinds back to back.
If anything, mythic+ shows people only raid because it was the only path to power progression and raiding today is kept propped up by retaining access to the best of the best items and slightly higher item levels over mythic+ despite the fact that mythic+ is harder to execute than raid fights and unlike raid fights, mythic+ is designed to be unbeatable and for the player to eventually be unable to overcome and with shifting difficulty week to week.
Just because raiding existed first doesnât inherently make it better. Thatâs like saying the rotary phone existed before cordless phones so rotary phones are just better and cordless phones need to be banned and intentionally made inferior to preserve the rotary phone legacy.
2 Likes
Please explain how a feature that endlessly scales is easier than a raid that is static?
2 Likes
Because it scales. And that scaling is directly influenced by the gear grind. Whereas in raids you gear grind to overcome the content quicker (Or actually beat it).
Not exactly sure why I have to explain that. If you like mythic+ kudos to you. Anything past 10 is a waste of your time challenge wise. Unless of course you out-geared it in which case you can enjoy the climb to 16 and try again there.
Because no one wants WoW to have to feel like a part-time job. Iâm not interested in finding a guild with a schedule that revolves around my free time and having to commit to those time slots. Most WoW players managed to get out of their parents basement years ago and have real life to deal with now.
And nor do I even find raiding to be worth the effort anyway.
Some players find raiding to be boring and quite frankly over hyped. Simple as that. Get over it.
3 Likes
This logic would make sense if gear scaled infinitely, but it doesnât. There is an ilvl cap and even before that ilvl cap the dungeons scale harder than the gear available. So, it isnât a âget better gearâ grind to beat higher keys, its just a âget betterâ grind.
3 Likes
umm false? the gear grind stops eventually.
Many of us have been sitting at 415/416/417 for a long time, still pushing very high keys.
The CE players pushing +28s have already stated that itâs more challenging than mythic rasz (especially some dungeons that are completely out of whack) and they arenât gear grinding.
They are testing their player skill limits.
1 Like
Itâs not a bug. Itâs a feature of tier sets being able to show up in the vault regardless of if you killed the tier bosses.
So Brood/Raz 424 tier can show up in the vault (those are the only 424 pieces).
Itâs also super RNG, and extremely unlikely, especially since the puggable raid is 2/8 and only 1 vault option.
But if some people feel that it happens enough to be upset about I also assume getting tier in the mythic+ vault also happens enough to be upset about.
Neither are really an issue.
1 Like
THIS was the death of my raiding, it is not fun or rewarding, it made me want to throw my keyboard through my TV. Even without keys in the picture, I still would have been done with this activity.
Keys give me a raid like experience that is significantly less of a pain to organize. It doesnât need a set schedule, and there are fewer cats to herd. The cats are also interchangeable with others. We also help carry each otherâs alts to get them up to speed. Itâs just better for me.
1 Like
Loot that, on the rare occasion that it has dropped, is useless because I already had higher ilvl from doing M+.
And you get even better arttificially inflated ilvl loot from simply failing to time a 15 or 16, even though most of them (dungeon dependent) are pretty easy. You donât have to be good or successful, you just have to fail your way through and eventually kill the last boss, to be rewarded with bonus ilvl loot.
Iâd have less of an issue if it required you actually timing the run, but it doesnât. You donât get anything inflated for clearing the raid.
It doesnât need to. Mythic+ is an artificial difficulty increase. Itâs like if Diablo had Expert 0, Expert 1, Expert 2, Expert 3 with an inevitable drop off. You donât need 10 other Experts, just the one.
Once you beat Mythic+ 10, youâve done all of the mechanics that make Mythics challenging. If you over-geared the run, then surely it wasnât exactly hard. Thatâs because 400 ilvl isnât exactly meant for 10. But now youâre sitting on 400 ilvl moving towards +16 when youâve essentially been doing the same exact thing the entire time. Zero new mechanics. Just longer boss fights and finally one shot deaths. All because you were way over ilvl for a 10.
An artificial difficulty increase that endlessly scales, is still much harder than raiding bro.
Just because its âartificialâ doesnât take away the challenge.
2 Likes
More health and more incoming damage means altering strategies and utelizing your full kit more. Just because they donât glue a whole new mechanic every level doesnât mean the scaling doesnât introduce new challenges at higher tiers.
Also, can you define what an âartificial challengeâ is in reference to scaling difficulty?
3 Likes
Iâve cleared Mythic VOTI in guild, and Iâve cleared 2400 in pugs.
2400 was a lot harder to get through, even playing healer, than everything but M Rasz.
Loot in M+ is also significantly less rewarding/RNG gated in that you canât coordinate who gets what. You just⌠get what you get, or beg the random person for the item you really need just for them to say no because you popped heroism 0.001 seconds too late during their opener.
It is what it is. 
Raiding is a lot faster of a way to get gear/progress your character, since you have normal/heroic/mythic to funnel gear into people hard for catch up. M+ is a lot less rewarding on gear, but gives more player agency in that âgrind equals gainsâ.
1 Like
/blinks
2400 was harder than every mythic boss except rasz?
dude
5 Likes
Lol, is it opposite day? Raid gearing is the slowest, worst way possible to get gear at the moment.