Uh, dude… this is salt.
its actually some sodium chloride.
Thanks for getting the reference.
I was afraid it would be too obscure.
i think that the general idea about after dazarlazor was that enough blood has been spilled for the day.
and is not like the alliance did it all without casualties because even two leaders were “defeated” in combat.
The attack is already called a success, despite failling the objetive of cutting their bonds, they did decimated the horde fleet and sacked the city
but pressing the attack during the funeral, where far more civillians would be reunited and less military targets would be pointless and only to kill and inflict more damage for the sake of doing it.
and like i said, the alliance also needed to lick their wounds.
i can reafirm this because in 8.2 the alliance is ready to end the war, with the alliance fleet “repaired” and jaina already healed.
or that is what i am trying to figure out.
is not like we have an entire novel to describe the motives behind this decision.
and not 3 lines of vague dialogue.
As for the rest of the discussión, civilians definectly died at dazar’alor, because i mean, all capitals have civilians populations.
The attack was literally by surprise and the dark irons were going wild.
but since we know that is not exactly what the leaders of the attack wanted we could call it collateral damage and probably they don’t even know it. (i mean, they should know that attacking a city by surprise have it’s consequences)
Not according to A Good War, where her original plan was to hold Teldrassil to get the Alliance to put resources into getting it back and Genn leaving the Alliance because they weren’t putting those resources into getting Gilneas back instead:
- “They might try to conquer the Undercity . . . but Darnassus becomes our hostage against that. The night elves will not allow your city to fall if they fear it means you will destroy theirs. The same goes for a strike against Silvermoon.” Saurfang’s thoughts raced. She’s right. This could work. “And even if the Alliance agrees to retake Darnassus . . . The Gilneans!”
Sylvanas’s eyes disappeared beneath the edge of her hood. “They lost their nation years ago. The Gilneans will be furious if the Alliance acts to help the kaldorei first,” she said. “The boy in Stormwind will have a political crisis on his hands. He is smart, but he is not experienced. What happens when Genn Greymane, Malfurion Stormrage, and Tyrande Whisperwind all demand differing actions? He is not a high king like his father. The respect the others give him is a courtesy, not an obligation. Anduin Wrynn will rapidly become a leader who cannot act. If the Alliance will not march as one, each nation will act in its own interest. Each army will return home to protect their lands from us.”
And if you note, Malfurion was even alive in Sylvanas’ plan layout.
Sylvanas also failed to kill Malfurion:
- But a miracle already had. A miracle granted by the honorable hand of a foolish old orc.
And an overconfident warchief. Best to lay blame where it belonged. This was her mistake as much as Saurfang’s.
Hell, Saurfang even told her to do it:
- Sylvanas ripped the axe free from Stormrage. The night elf grunted with pain, and blood gushed out of the wound, but he made no other sound.
“Finish him and be done with it,” Saurfang said quietly.
But she didn’t because of her theatricality.
That’s the kicker, though. Sylvanas’ plan called for holding Teldrassil to prevent the battle for Lordaeron, and then relying on Genn to complain that Anduin wasn’t helping Gilneas first instead of taking Teldrassil back so the Alliance would split. Sylvanas didn’t know that Genn was never going to betray the Night Elves, and without that knowledge, the idea that Malfurion living would somehow make it so Genn would back taking Teldrassil doesn’t actually follow Sylvanas’ train of thought. By burning Teldrassil, following Sylvanas’ thoughts, she was actually removing the only thing holding Genn back from convincing everyone to go straight for Lordaeron. Sylvanas literally threw away the only thing that held her plan together. And she admits this:
- “They will come for us now. All of them!” he said.
“I know.” She was calm, as though nothing were wrong. “They will attack the Undercity in retaliation. You will need to plan our defenses. Begin evacuating my people.”
He struggled to form words. Finally, pure hatred made him spit out a condemnation. “You have damned the Horde for a thousand generations. All of us. And for what? For what?”
Her expression didn’t waver. “This was your battle. Your strategy. And your failure. Darnassus was never the prize. It was a wedge that would split the Alliance apart. It was the weapon that would destroy hope. And you, my master strategist, gave that up to spare an enemy you defeated. I have taken it back.”
Everything after the emphasized part was just Sylvanas having an emotional break down because she was chastising herself for not finishing Malfurion when he was served to her on a silver platter, and then pushed over the edge by Delaryn and then lashed out without actually even thinking about what she was saying.
Saurfang felt the exact same way towards Sylvanas. That was the entire conclusion to A Good War:
- War would still have come. That had been certain the moment Saurfang had led the Horde into Ashenvale. And it would have been what he had feared most: the meat grinder, spending so many lives to achieve so little, ending with a whimper, and thus dooming future generations to a war nobody could win. Once again, Sylvanas had seen it before he had.
And so . . .
She had sent a message. This was not a war that would end in a stalemate. Not now. The Alliance and the Horde would both understand that the only choices were victory or death. Lok‐tar ogar.
Darnassus would not be the last city to burn. The loss of life on both sides would tower over this atrocity. And it would all rest on his shoulders. Every moment would be a nightmare.
Sylvanas turned back toward the World Tree, watching it burn. Saurfang made himself watch the flames consume city and citizens alike. He would not dishonor himself further by turning away.
The screams continued. They reminded him of Shattrath. He had loved the sound, then. Smoke filled the air, reminding him of Stormwind, of racing through the streets as buildings burned all around him, finding cowering humans and butchering them as they begged for their lives. He had loved the slaughter, then.
And he had loved this war, too, hadn’t he?
Saurfang did not move for hours, not until the screams faded and the flames had burned themselves down to embers. Before him stood a smoking husk that had once been a great civilization. Inside him was a feeling of despair, a feeling of shame. There was no haze of corruption now to soften the horror.
Saurfang would remember this moment in his dreams forever. He would relive this shame, and all the new ones to come, over and over again.
You have led your Horde in the service of death, Malfurion had said.
How could Saurfang face the soldiers he had led into this war? How could he explain what they had done?
He couldn’t. He would never know how.
But the burden would be his, always, until his dying day.
As Saurfang turned away, he hoped that day would come soon.
I was basing my statement above on the plan as it was given to the player, before the prepatch. Debating whether or not Sylvanas planned it from the start or just before telling the player “I want to kill Malfurion” before the assault on Ashenvale/Darkshore began is arguing chronology. You even agree that part of her plan was to kill Malfurion in the next point:
Yes, she did fail to kill him. I was chiding Saurfang, though, and you agree that he also failed to kill him. So he’s still a dingdong.
Your response is very fair and well-argued, and I would in fact agree with you that she made some missteps. However, I would not consider Sylvanas’s decision to burn Teldrassil a deliberate sabotage (her theatricality is pretty suspect, but that can also be cracked up to the writers just pulling an idiot ball for the sake of the story and avoid killing Malfurion). It’s a change of plans, but the loss of Teldrassil (at least within the context of lore, not gameplay) was still a devastating victory over the night elves (moral issues aside).
Saurfang’s feelings mean little to me, as his perspective comes from within the context of his knowledge as a character and his knowledge from within the story.
Sylvanas doesn’t factor into the feelings I enumerated about Anduin here, as well. Saying “well X felt this way about this/did this too” can be a relevant point in some circumstances, but I should probably save us both some time and say that while I appreciate the effort, I think people’s interpretations of Sylvanas’s decision at Teldrassil versus Anduin’s decision at Dazar’alor is subjective. From my perspective:
Teldrassil and Dazar’alor cannot be easily compared, as:
-
Burning Teldrassil was a decision made when Sylvanas felt she had no other choice, to protect the lives of Horde soldiers and eliminate a threat. The night elves were not psychologically defeated, Malfurion was not dead, and the Sentinel Army would descend upon the Horde’s holdings soon, as up until that point the Horde was fighting a diminished force.
-
Refusing to continue the assault on Dazar’alor was a decision Anduin made based upon his own moral feelings and desire for mercy. The Zandalari were demoralized following a raid on their largest and most important city (and one of the only bastions of their empire left standing), Rastakan was dead, and the city guard and Horde forces were not so distant from Dazar’alor, as the Sentinels were. I believe it’s reasonable to say that the forces which were diverted to Nazmir managed to get back to the city in time to meet the Alliance assault, and yet they were still defeated.
The thrust of my points as previously mentioned, and why these two situations differ:
-
If Teldrassil had not been burned and the Horde fortified at Darkshore, the night elves were in a suitable enough position to mount a devastating response.
-
If Dazar’alor’s assault had been continued, the Zandalari had suffered severe enough damage to their morale and defending force (until the Horde sends more troops, assuming they would even get there in time and there’d be anything left to protect) that the Alliance could have completely wiped the Zandalari from the war as players, crippling the Horde enough to win the war entirely.
I appreciate your desire to change my mind and debate details, but I should probably save us both some time out of our lives and say that the thrust of every single point I’ve just made is that, in my subjective opinion, I think Sylvanas is a leader I would far prefer over Anduin. This is subjectively how I feel, and all these points I’ve just made are to the purpose of explaining that. Not convincing you or anyone, just facilitating some understanding and perspective.
I hope the bolding doesn’t sound aggressive, I just really want to stress this point to avoid getting into another ten-hour argument today.
So did you, as predicted, wake up with a heart heavy with regret for this thread :3c ?
I think this is a generous way of putting things.
Some statements are just statements of opinion. Not meant to convince or belittle disagreement. But to show the array of views possible, even if there is disagreement.
Personally, I would rather hear every other opinion than the one I hold. I know what I think already. I like to see how others arrive to a different conclusion.
I’m aiming to do exactly what I did the time I woke up in Tijuana in a tub of lube with half a buttcheek: just pretend it didn’t happen.
If nothing else They Who Will Not Be Named taught me to clarify my intent as crystal-clear as possible, because people will purposefully misunderstand anything so long as they believe that failing to understand a point means your opposition is wrong.
Your hat looks bad and you should feel bad.
I can wear the Golden Laughing Skull Mask… It is the best of the Laughing Skull Masks. But even that is rubbish compared to my hat, imho.
Any peon can find a bone and slap it on their head.
See, sharing diverse opinions educates us all.
/points at tabard in his profile
Jelly?
Recently had this conversation with Imerus, and hopefully this covers how I feel on the idea of tying to change your mind:
In short, no, I’m not trying to change your mind. I’m just sharing the lore I see as well.
To nitpick, you said “original” plan, and with chronology the layout in A Good War is Sylvanas’ original and placed well before what was offered in the in-game event. Which changes the crux of the matter, as Sylvanas’ original plan was not to devastate the Night Elves, but to splinter the Alliance. By burning Teldrassil she does throw away her original plan, as following Sylvanas’ thoughts she doesn’t establish any way that burning Teldrassil would actually splinter the Alliance, and rather she admits that she unites the Alliance more as they’ll unify to attack Lordaeron, when the original plan was that holding Teldrassil would not allow them to do that in the first place.
I do not consider it deliberate sabotage, either. I consider it her having an emotional breakdown and not thinking clearly and sabotaging her own plans in a moment of lack of sense and inhibition. I did a long breakdown analysis of the passage of A Good War where Sylvanas is focusing on Malfurion surviving, if you’d be interested in me sharing it again here. If not, I’ll leave it at that.
Change of plans is the problem. She changed it from “hold Teldrassil to splinter the Alliance” to “get into a war of extermination and hope the Alliance slips up.”
To be fair, this was actually Jaina. Anduin says the still have to fight. Just that fight has to be taken to Sylvanas to end the war, not the Zandalari:
- Lady Jaina Proudmoore: Press the attack as the Zandalari mourn their fallen king? That would make us no better than the Banshee.
Master Mathias Shaw says: She's the real problem here. I imagine she is already finding ways to turn this to her advantage.
Anduin Wrynn says: We must continue the fight. But as we push towards victory, we must never lose sight of who we are and what we stand for.
Now why we don’t actually see the Alliance go after Sylvanas again right away? And instead we spend our time talking with Baine, watching him get arrested, getting Xal’atath, and then falling into the Nazjatar trap? I think you covered that pretty well already:
I… I kinda want this to be the new topic of the thread. It’s certainly got my attention more than anything in BfA has.
So like… was half of your buttcheek gone, or did you have someone else’s buttcheek?
You never been to a cheek sale? Your missing out. Some of the best rump roast in Tijuana
I do love me a good butt roast.
All different kinds and sizes of em too. I like the big ones, I cannot lie. My Laughing Skull brothers can’t deny that this is the best place to take this thread