Again with you picking a snippet to take it out of context. How childish.
If you think you have a point, quote it all and debate it. Honestly. Iâll debate anything if itâs in good faith. Youâve shown none of it in you following me around like a petulant child.
Your âNo-changeâ definition has never been Blizzards.
So if they provide 1.12 itâs changing the game, but if they provide 1.9 its not? But 1.9 isnât 1.1. And 1.1 isnât 1.4. And 1.4 isnât 1.12.
They specifically told us weâre getting 1.12 for everything, excluding progressive item release, and content release.
So if its in 1.12 and we get it, its not a change. Clear?
Ion floated the idea of a Frankenpatch ages ago picking and choosing between patches.
I get it. My idea of no changes is 1.1-1.12. Blizzardâs is anything from any patch.
I also said âI get itâ when mentioning them adding in other stuff outside of Vanilla. Theyâre a business after all.
But when it comes to gameplay related elements, I would think something that didnât exist for 83% of Vanillaâs life would be on the table for discussion like Leeway.
Since itâs a huge benefit to melee they are grasping at that last 17% and pretending thatâs the entire game to keep it in.
I get it though. 1.12 is the most complete version until Blizz decides it isnât then changes things.
They already added systems beyond Vanilla.
That precedent has already been set. Iâm arguing for only what was in Vanilla.
When something wasnât in for 83% of Vanillaâs running time, thatâs a lot of time to say what was added in that last 17% is what the majority will remember and what MADE Vanilla, Vanilla.
Thatâs a difficult position to argue. That last 17% never made Vanilla what it was throughout the meat of peopleâs time with it.
They removed stuff that was in Vanilla for 40% of its life but say the last 17% is gospel.
Their methodology doesnât compute.
1 Like
Except itâs not, and never has been.
Iâve quoted this to you many times but it seems youâre having trouble with comprehending what it means. Iâll try to explain it to you, slowly:
Alright, read this extremely slowly and focus:
The goal has been to recreate the mechanics, NOT the experience. The mechanics, the numbers; not the outcome of the mechanics combined with external factors (LIKE LATENCY). The mechanics.
Pillar.
Inception.
I get it.
But, again, they pick and choose what to keep and what not to keep. Things that existed for almost half of Vanillaâs life are gone but stuff that is more harmful that only existed for less than 20% of Vanillaâs life is set in stone.
I get what Blizzard is after, but their choices are pissing off the community on what they THINK the players will embrace.
Thatâs a huge problem. They are still the company that said âyou think you doâ blah blah. They are still that company that is out of touch and their choices are proving it.
You see how much better our dialogue is when you debate in kind and not try to take me out of context.
This is actually turning out to be good discussion.
Kudos. Not joking. Kudos.
1 Like
Itâs not a precedent.
Every additional element has been assessed case by case, independently. And they are keeping them to the bare minimum. RCR and Loot trading are required to minimise GM loads. Layering is required temporarily to manage the load.
Leeway has been in Classic since the demo. It was a part of Vanilla like Spell Batching, and has a place in the recreation in the same way.
This argument has been pretty decisively shot down by Blizzard themselves, because they told us they were not producing a frankenpatch. They were producing 1.12 as the âmost polished versionâ. Expecting differently, well thatâs what Private Servers will claim to provide soon.
From what I have seen so far Blizzard is basing all of the game play elements off of 1.12. They havenât deviated from that.
Spell batching we know isnât exact because they are trying to mimic it, so I can see some complaints there.
Leeway though appears to be a set number and was in during 1.12, which is what they are working combat wise. So if it is functioning properly as it was in 1.12, then you can complain, but you donât have much solid ground to stand on.
Thatâs why i say âi get itâ - doesnât mean i have to agree with it. Shocker!
Letâs recap with this:
Does anyone remember what else was shot down by blizzard year on year on year on year ad nauseum?
Anyone remember? Iâm personally having a hard time recalling.
Oh well. Maybe Iâll just keep browsing the World of Warcraft Classic forum, the forum for the Classic version of WoW that represents Vanilla - the one point in time that has been mercilessly requested to be brought back by Blizzard over and over and they kept shooting it down over and over. Maybe if I browse this World of Warcraft Classic forum, the forum for the Classic version of WoW that represents Vanilla, Iâll remember what else has been shot down that they finally broke on.
2 Likes
As it stands we are getting a Frankenpatch version of Vanilla. I get why, again, I do. But the precedent for picking and choosing what should and shouldnât be has already been set and left in charge to the folks who have been nothing but out of touch with the community for years.
1 Like
The âIf we whine enough weâll get our wayâ argument is not valid for how we got Classic. There was far more involved, both in terms of level of evidence as well as the business case for delivering Classic.
Anyone who thinks whining got Classic doesnât understand how the world works. Whining was the one thing that didnât get Classic. Proof of a market, alternate revenue streams, IP protection, and a host of other things got us Classic. And on a shoestring budget at that.
If you want to use that argument focus on Content Patches and Loot Trading. Where enough community sentiment, got modifications.
If you said âChange Leeway to 1 yardâ, Iâd actually see that as a valid request, because the element is still present, its just adjusted. Throwing it out entirely makes it less authentic than having it at full strength.
I mean if you want to spend years hoping they change it you can, but you have a couple of months, beta is almost done.
It matches up to what they have stated from the start, they are building off 1.12. Just look at how many things have changed away from 1.12 on the combat/talents/gameplay side of things. I canât really think of any.
Most everything that is different is from a systems side. I think the only thing I recall them going back to older time on was mount training.
1 Like
Oh Iâm well aware of what went into it aside from the internet bog standard ârequestsâ. Iâve outlined them before. I was just shooting down your âshot downâ remark.
As for leeway, as a non-Blizz dev I read the standard 5 yard range as the padding because itâs 5 yards. 15 feet. I had assumed that was set to provide padding. Imagine 5 yard melee distance in a Souls Game, for example.
Now enter in Blizzâs netcode from back in the day: Out of Range - while trying to attack a target you are literally on top of. This happened a lot in Vanilla, especially with moving targets - which brings us not to a fix for an issue but a band-aid introduced 80% through the life of Vanilla: leeway
Leeway was never a mechanic designed for the game, it was a band-aid created to hide a problem.
In todayâs world, we donât have those same problems that need Band-Aids. Some issues can still pop up but they are infrequent in the grand scheme of gaming, in general. If one company or game has more problems than another - thatâs a result of that specific netcode.
Should it be removed entirely? Testing would be the only way to see if it indeed should be removed. Should it be tuned? At the least. We arenât on dial up anymore.
Itâs 2019. People expect a certain level of competence, they expect a certain level of polish.
I donât consider Band-Aids like leeway to be a core system the game was designed with. Itâs the equivalent of adding a big ugly looking cube in the middle of WSG because SOME people fall through the world in one specific spot so instead of fixing it - they cover it up.
The programmer in me looks at stuff like this and cringes. Maybe it was the best solution at the time, but all things considered if you asked me what I believe the core tenets of WoW are - leeway wouldnât be on that list.
Itâs not a defining characteristic of the gameplay and has greater affect on the meta of the game now, when itâs not needed, than it did in the final days of Vanilla. It changes the meta, full stop and provides a greater advantage the better your speed than it did back then - and that was even acknowledged by Blizz.
Removed? All things considered and knowing how ABSOLUTELY AMAZING Comcast is - probably not. Toned down to reasonable levels? What those levels are? They need to be tested.
As for batching, another sticky topic, Iâm not fond of my skin being saved by sheer luck but thereâs something wonky going on with it that is making everything feel sluggish when it should only affect player to target abilities. Removed? No. Fixed? Yes. Blizz hasnât commented on it being ânot a bugâ so Iâm going to assume they are working on it.
1 Like
The problem comes in when people declare what is or isnât âa core systemâ. Is AV 1.5 a core system, since thatâs how it was originally designed and was ânerfedâ because of people? That argument has been made many times, despite my believing its âcontentâ.
Like Spell Batching, Leeway was a part of Vanilla in 1.12. In order to recreate the original game they have to add it. If you want to be truly authentic, you need to help out by nerfing your PC and internet connection.
Yes, 90% of players may never have consciously noticed Leeway. However, 99% of players never killed a boss in Naxx, and 75% of players never hit level 60. Weâre not proposing making levelling easier, or removing Naxx attunementsâŚ
Believe! PvPers hate and donât want this leeway in at all.
1 Like
From the streams I saw of BETA⌠no one even noticed or discussed âleewayâ. In the tournaments, casters did well⌠and it was down to a Ele Shaman and a frost mage.
Leeway isnât an issue. It is a latency compensation mechanism that helped those with low latency compete. If a person has low latency now (and ther are plenty that do) itâs there for them. But it won;t affect everyone else with their high latency⌠the game experience will be the same.
It may âFEELâ different to those that USED to have high latency back then but not now⌠but not at all to those that have played WoW for the past several years.
People just want something to complain about⌠probably those retails players still trying to jab at a superior version of the game.
Risen from the dead. Those guys have only had a couple months of practice and arenât really that good at the game. Just wait till 60 pvp comes. You see, in classic wow, ppl with low ping are given max leeway at 2.66yrds no matter what the latency situation is with others. This is wrong.
Even something like (Read Below) this is better & closer to what vanilla was like over what Blizzard has implemented as leeway in Classic.
Every 100ms = 1yrd leeway, so 200ms = 2yrd leeway, and 266+ms = MAX 2.66yrd leeway.
If person A has 300ms and person B has 0ms then person B experiences a 2.66yrd leeway and for person A things will appear to work normally at their normal range(s).
<------------0(B)--------300(A)-------> (the lower pinged person always experiences more leeway when versing a higher pinged person because they are late)
If person A has 150ms and person B has 150ms then both persons A+B experiences a 1.33yrd leeway each so on both of their screens they will each notice a 2.66yrd leeway (This was common to see in Vanilla because ppl had over 100ms on avg).
<----150(A)----0----150(B)---->
If person A has 0ms and person B has 0ms then both persons experience 0yrds of leeway and everything is working at exactly their normal range(s).
<------0(A+B)------>
<â10(A)â0----50(B)----> A=0.5yrds leeway, B=0.1yrds leeway.
And it just keeps on going.
Hopefully, this gives you all better insight and a general idea of how leeway used to & should work in classic and why leeway was ping based.
Blizz just needs the algorithm for leeway that they lost and we will be all set.
REMEMBER: someone with low ping will always have an advantage over someone with high ping no matter what. The latency based leeway method was created so people with high ping can have a ânormalâ gaming experience.*
1 Like
This post is wrong.