Dramatic. Ever thought of joining your local production company?
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100%. WotLK was the beginning of the end of WoW. It introduced so many “features” that people now identify as totally game breaking and deleterious.
You need to stop posting lol you are really saying some nonsense things now… Class homogenization starting in TBC? Lol come on man…seriously…
Apparently we just making stuff up now.
Flying had a lot to do with. Not many classes are able to “safely” kill somebody who is /afk on a flying mount near the “ceiling” of the zone.
Arguably, PVP avoidance with flying is easier than it is likely to be with layering on releae, and you see all the hate towards layering.
The other issue with flying is it turns some PvP into more of an annoyance rather than an event. Because of that whole PvP avoidance issue, with an additional twist.
JoeGanker has a flying mount, he’s cruising around on his 310 speed flying mount, bypassing all the mobs in the area, and notices a player of the opposing faction at low health fighting a mob. He swoops in, kills the player, mounts back up and zooms off long enough for his victim to corpse run back. At which point he’ll rinse and repeat.
Now try that on a 100 speed ground mount, where you also have to contend with the mobs in the surrounding area.
I played on a PvP server from day 1 of launch until I quit in Wrath, and when I played intermittently from then on, it was on that same server. There was a very noticeable change in world PvP with the introduction of flying, and the is coming from someone who had a PvE focus throughout all of that.
Yes, Battlegrounds also significantly reduced the quantity of PvP that happened in the world, but the quality was still there. Until everybody started getting epic flying mounts. Then it largely became paratrooper/helicopter precision PVP commando strikes from nowhere to nowhere. For meaningful world PvP, flying mounts are mostly straight up cancer. There are some very limited pros, but the cons are many.
The only thing crazy was I missed the mark on “Bring the player, not the class” being pre-launch TBC, it was pre-launch Wrath. But many of the associated design decisions were already being seen as early as TBC with Kara.
And I’m not alone in pointing to TBC on this issue:
I almost want to run that dev interview to see if I could get it verbatim from them as that poster indicates it was the WoW Devs who cited TBC in this case. But hey, you can believe what you want to.
So you’re wrong… again. And also, bring the play not the class does not mean class homogenization, they were referring to balance. Balance =/=homogenization.
Also, the quotes you are referring to are literally talking about blizzard removing class requirements for some bosses so that’s what started their ‘bring the player not the class’ campaign. This has nothing to do with homogenization dude, this is blizzard literally saying “We don’t want you to be forced to only bring certain classes”.
Jesus christ do you really not know how to comprehend what you read?
I don’t think you understand what homogenization means TBH if you think TBC or Wotlk had it.
It may have brought people back, but there are definitely retail players that are leaving for classic (I am one) hence its a fractured community.
Considering retail players that have left for classic and non-subscribers coming back for classic…it will again be a fracture if that group is allowed to choose to stay on classic servers or move to TBC servers.
This whole “fractured community” thing is a fallacy though. Retail and Classic both require a sub to play. They’re still getting your money no matter which client you choose to log in on. Same can be said for TBC or Wrath if/when those later get released also. No matter which version of the game we choose to play, we are all still a WoW community. My advice?? While taking the time to go on your adventures through Azeroth and you make some friends along the way…add them to your Bnet rather than the regular friend list…this way you can talk to them and give them a hand if they need it no matter which clients the both of you are playing on and swap as needed
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Lol, …no?
If I dont talk to them and they dont talk to me (ie, we do not interact at all) we are not a community!
That might be true for retail, but it doesn’t hold true for Classic. People don’t ignore each other in the old game because there are so many things about it that encourage grouping
You said retail players paying subs to blizzard makes them a community with classic players playing a sub to blizzard.
You said a fractured community is a fallacy because both parties pay a sub to the same company…
My point, is that those who play retail, can’t afford to ignore people in Classic because the game mechanics won’t allow a person to do that without taking a much longer time to get things accomplished. There’s no dungeon finder for example, there are elite mobs that hit like a truck, there are single tag only mobs etc. It’s MUCH more beneficial to group up and these people know that if they were there in the beginning
Yes there will be people who will try to be a lone wolf but once they realize that certain things can’t be done without help, they will look to group up. As long as the more friendly people take advantage of that and add each other via Bnet, then communication is possible no matter which client you are playing on, therefore…no fractured community
Here’s the thing though…the first part of that sentence says it all. “If I don’t talk to them” Sometimes people are introverts and don’t necessarily speak to anyone unless spoken to, so if you don’t try to reach out, part of that failure in communication is on you. Let me ask you something…do you buff/heal players as they run by or when you see them busy fighting? Do you help them if they appear to be losing and about to die? This is also part of social interaction and making friends…you don’t necessarily have to be the first one to talk…if they are a good person they will speak first by saying “ty” All you have to do then is ask if they want help or what quests they are on…it’s really not that hard to socialize in Classic
Well, if you want to believe standardized testing results that are really old by now, I was in the 99th percentile on reading comprehension back then. 
But then, I’m just some some random guy on the internet posting on a female avatar who could be blowing smoke.
Although I’ll admit to possibly getting a little too practiced at “reading between the lines” over the years since then. Being fluent in parsing Bureaucrat, “Diplomat” and a lot of Tech Jargon as well sometimes isn’t a blessing.
I agree we’re probably using different definitions here. I’m also likely to be using a far more exacting measure for it than you seem to be.
It started in TBC, but most people didn’t notice it happening until Cataclysm. Just because many/most failed to notice didn’t mean it wasn’t happening.
But hey my reading comprehension has a history of sucking:
And then we discover in May that the Pets were carrying over. Huh. I guess I really missed the boat on correctly parsing Blizzard. Reading comprehension is hard.
How can you type so much, and literally say nothing at all.
If you think homogenization happened in TBC, give me one clear example of it present during this time. I’ll wait.
Obvious one is Shaman for Alliance, Paladin for Horde. 
Might go dig through the patch notes for 2.x but probably won’t. People were complaining about homogenization even in TBC, with the Arenas also getting a lot of the heat for it. Although that generally had more to do with PvE abilities getting nerfed because they were proving to be OP in the Arena. I’m not even going to try to suss that stuff out of the patch notes.
You did make me pop over to my TBC/Wrath-era guild forums to see if I get any indications from there. First mention of “homogenization” over there was in June of 2008 in regards to Alpha leaks for Wrath. Also mentioned were comments I evidently relayed from some Blizzard Devs regarding spirit/mp5 after coming back from Blizzcon 2007. (So excuse me if my memory was slightly muddied by being aware of some things potentially(and actually) coming about halfway through TBC, with it actually happening in Wrath)
The specific topic being discussed in this case was what turned out to be the transition to spellpower instead of the previous +Healing or +dmg/healing item stat. Also brought up were the Spell and Physical Crit/hit stats being consolidated into just being Crit or Hit so they did the same thing for physical and caster classes/roles.
But that’s gear homogenization not class homogenization, except if you’re reducing the number of stats that ALL of the classes/roles are using, well…
There is a mention of “Class Homogenization” in July of 2008 by my guildmaster(not me) but doesn’t provide an example.
Later than my claim of it starting in TBC, but earlier than the alleged claim that “it didn’t happen until Cataclysm.”
And one that should really seal it, how about from Ghostcrawler himself in February 2009?
So now, let us get back to:
Gonna have to disagree here, guy.
I’d rather see new content developed with the mindset and tone of the original game rather than WoW Classic turn into EQ’s progression servers.
Your path begs the question of “where do we stop” because if you’re just going to start following OG WoW’s releases, you’re going to end up back at WotLK and Cataclysm all over again.
BC was the era of the raid where you had to have a warlock and a magetank, and the Black Temple boss who you needed rogues to tank, so I think anyone who said, now or then, that it was homogenizing the classes the way WotLK did is wrong. In WotLK class homogenization was plentiful, from Replenishment to…other things I can’t be sure if they were added in WotLK or Cataclysm (Hex, for one); you still needed a death knight for some fights (notably Malygos) but I can’t think of any fights where you really needed a class that wasn’t the sparkling new hero class.
What Ghostcrawler said was interesting, not for scoring some kind of point with “look, a WoW developer thought there was homogenization!” but for observing that, in 2007, the official stance of WoW’s development team was that homogenization was a bad thing; I wonder when they reversed that attitude.
As a former mage tank on illidari council, I’m almost cynical enough to wonder if bt spellsteal mechanics were to make sure mages kept a raid spot.
Anyways, BC’s problem wasn’t homogenization. Outside of Sunwell you could run quite a lot of comps. It’s problem, and to this day, is that the “world of warcraft” became the “world of expansion-craft” (woe) and hence classic+ (or WoW2).
/facepalm… that’s not class homogenization.
Ok I’m done, your incompetency got the best of me again, you don’t even know what the subject is you’re talking about how can you even argue for it lol